Matt: Okay, we’re good to go. So here we go. Gert, welcome to the podcast.

Gert: Thank you. I’m very happy to hear you, be here. Yeah.

Matt: Yeah. Great to great to meet you. let’s get started with the state of the state. Who are you? Where are you? And what do you consider yourself?

Gert: Well, I live in Belgium, which is a small country in Europe. and I’m busy with music in a professional way for thirty-five years, something like that. I’m a very passion-driven person, so I always want to do things I love to do and I want to make my job out of it. And my main passion is is. Is you I want to say beer, that’s also a passion of mine, but that’s for something later. Beer and music. and well, I’ve done a lot of things. I’ve I’ve worked for a record company. I’ve was a music journalist for three newspapers in Belgium. I’m teaching for the moment two university colleges. I used to teach at four university colleges.

Matt: Well yeah, we’re gonna talk about

Gert: I have a PhD in sociology of music. That’s also one of my main occupations. I’m a musician mys I I worked for an art venue. I did organize concerts in in Ghenton, Belgium. I’m a musician myself, released seven albums. I had a project in the Nilly’s combination of jazz and electronica called Briskey, with which I also had a big band, which we performed all over Europe. right now I make music all on myself in an immersive way. So I’m very into immersive audio, Dolby Atmos. so I create my music in immersive and then I mix and master. Mastering is also something I do for other people. So I’m a I’m a certified mastering engineer. That’s one of my side jobs beside of of of teaching. So it’s I always know it’s it maybe it sounds impressive, but it’s not for me. I’m I’m just busy with my passion and and that’s music. And and I always want to explore music on different angles. So meeting artists by writing about it, by organizing concerts, then performing myself, meeting other people. So I’m always in the run and and and looking for new challenges in in music and maybe I’m I’m bored. too quickly that I do a lot of different things.

Matt: And but did you mention the brewery?

Gert: Yeah, I I also have a brewery. That’s my my other passion. It’s music and beer. and I live at at the countryside in in the Flemish part of Belgium. and when we moved here, it’s about thirteen years ago, my first thing was I want to do something with my hands too, so I cultivated my own hop plants. so I have a small brewery, two hundred liters, it’s very small, and grow my own own hubs and I make my my different kinds of beer from different sorts, blonde beer, dog beer. I’ve got IPAs, I’ve got I’ve got stout beer, different kind of of beer. So that’s for me it’s a bit like making music. It’s also working with with small ingredients and make something which suits people, which is nice, which is beautiful, which is tasteful. and it’s the same with making music. It’s that’s also a combination of different small parts and and making something which is bigger and and can can can be yeah pleasing.

Matt: Wow, we’re like not even five minutes into the interview and I’m totally inspired by you. That’s fantastic. okay, before we go into the beginning and where you grew up and all that business, I want to know how you deal with time management when you do all these things.

Gert: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a difficult difficult thing. Because I can I can stress out quite quickly because I’ve got too much on my mind. maybe I also they say I also have AGHD, so that’s that’s why I have this this very big energy to to keep on doing things. Maybe that helps. but it’s it’s like yeah, just just get get yourself organized in a way. I’ve got a few things I have to do. So I’m teaching at two university colleges in Belgium. Those hours are are blocked and locked. those days are fixed. But in between I’ve got three days. And then when I have a mastering gig, I just do that. If it if there isn’t a mastering gig, I do some mixing myself. I start composing, work in the the hop yard. So it’s really from from day to day. See if there is time, I will I will do something I I I fancy at that at that time. but sometimes it’s just all all together and and and I have to admit, there are nights that I hardly sleep just because my my head is so so active and I have to do this and this and this. And then one thing which is very important for me, I I really like cycling. so that’s my way to free my mind. like within two days I will do a tour of 80 kilometers cycling. I also go to my my school, which is 40 kilometers one way, I do it by bike. with an electric one of course, but but that’s just to to free my mind. that’s when you have a bit too much energy, but then then I can sleep well. Yeah.

Matt: Amazing that you do all of this stuff. well, my next question would be: do you have kids? Okay. Well, there we go.

Gert: No. No, that’s the reason why you can do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No kids. And I have a very lovely wife who is really encouraging me and and also she’s also letting me free and and doing the things we do. We do a lot of things together, but but in the meantime I can do whatever I want. And so that’s that that’s very important. I also I all met her when I was thirty. so That was also important that that we have we had already a long history, both of the two of us. She came from from the radio. She she was she she was doing she was a presenter, a host on on national radio in Belgium. and she was hosting a program in which my music was played. So I knew her because she was the host of the program and then we met for the first time and it was yeah, love at first sight. So that that’s important too. Yeah.

Matt: That’s absolutely important. let’s go back to the beginning. talk to me about where did you grow up specifically?

Gert: Mm-hmm Well, you know, Belgium have got has got two parts, a f a French part and a Flemish part. I’m from the Flemish part, which is very crowd. So it’s it’s in in in square meters it’s difficult to explain, but I think you can fit London five times into Flanders, maybe something like that. And there are six million people living there. So it’s very crowdy. and but I was from more of a of a more quiet part of of of this of this country in in a small town with parents singing in a choir my older brother was playing the flute so there was music in the family and so it was easy for me to follow music lessons when i was in in in low low in not in primary school yeah when i was ten years old and because it’s it it’s a small city When I went to study after after college time, went to a bigger city where there was a university there that did sociology. but that city, very beautiful, it’s called Leuven. It’s the biggest university city in in Belgium. but it’s only students. So after that, I moved to Ghent, which is the nicest, one of the nicest cities I know. I’ve lived there for 20 years. It’s just like Bruges, which everybody knows, but Ghent is alive. It’s a very it’s got a medieval castle in the middle of the city center. It’s it’s it’s a it’s like a pig it’s like like a fairy tale. It’s so beautiful city, but it’s alive with a lot of youth, a lot of music, a lot of cinema, theater, also a lot of economy. So it’s a very alive city. And and there I lived for twenty years and and started my whole my whole professional career. but it’s by getting older, and I think we have the same age. I’m from sixty nine.

Matt: Yeah, me too. Yeah.

Gert: Yeah, yeah. I heard you saying in a podcast once that you were fifty-six. that’s the same age age as I am. so but by by getting getting older, I wanted to to have more more a more quiet life. so I went really went to the to the countryside. And if somebody of of of the listeners are familiar with cycling and you know the the famous cobblestone classics in in Belgium, like the Tour of Flanders. That’s where I live. So it’s in in that part of of Flanders with a lot of it’s the hillside. it’s it’s not no mountains, but it’s hilly. Hilly with a lot of cobblestones and and and wadow meadows. So it’s it it’s a nice it’s a nice place, which also brings brings rest in this life.

Matt: When did you get interested in audio or or the creation of you know, the the the recording side, the mixing side, the production side of audio?

Gert: Well, that’s I try to play an instrument first. so I studied the flute when I was a child, because my elder brother was playing flute, and I knew this is the most sexy instrument in the world, so I also wanted to play the flute. but then I became a teenager and I want to impress girlfriend, so I played the guitar and I brought an electric guitar. and I played a lot of guitar. but one day, and that is very important, I because I I’m I’m a big Pink Floyd fan because of my brother, so I played David Gilmour style guitar. And I want to do something else. So I decided I will go to follow jazz lessons. And my jazz guitar teacher, he got one of the first editions of Cubase. I think it’s Cubase two, and I’m talking about ninety ninety one.

Matt: Yeah.

Gert: That time. So it’s really the beginning. And so I went there to to follow some jazz lessons, but I came back with the first cracked version of Cubase. And my brother got an old Atari computer on which you can load in this this Cubase file. And and then I just realized: well, I prefer creating music instead of playing an instrument. And then I st started writing two tunes in in on my my small on this small system. And I also had an old Tascam four track with which I already record some some of my first songs, playing guitar, some flute, some keyboards. I got a rhythm machine, this Bose Dr. Rhythm 500 or 50. What’s the name of it? It’s an old rhythm machine. and that’s

Matt: yeah.

Gert: That’s really the first it was in the nineties, making my own and and I played in a few bands, but I I I realized that playing in a band is fine as long as I could deliver the music. So I’m I’m really an an an yeah someone who who wants to create in even more than just playing together, playing an instrument. so I I I’ve I have my my my biggest moments when I can. make a new tune. And that started in in the 90s. And then I just that’s the reason why I still work with Nuendo today. because I’m working with Cubase since since 90s. So that’s that’s that’s that’s 35 years. So it’s that’s my my second nature. I know the program inside out. and that’s of course important when you create music that it’s an attachment to yourself and it’s not something you have to think about. and

Matt: Yeah.

Gert: And in the beginning I was making music to perform with friends and and to perform live. so in the niles I have I had this band called Briskey. the minimal setup was seven musicians. so and I rich I wrote all the compositions for them and I was doing the sampling and and live electronics and and the conducting because the musicians are mainly professional jazz musicians, highly qualified musicians could play instruments much better than I do.

Matt: Yeah.

Gert: but they played my music and and together we we reshaped it. and then I got this idea to make to turn it into a big band because I was using a lot of big band samples. so I had a 15-piece big band for which I wrote all the arrangements, did a lot of concerts with, and so in the first period was composing tracks, performing live by my musicians. And then there was some yeah this this yeah maybe typical artistic frustration after a while. so after four albums, what what shall be next? shall I make the fifth one, which is more or less the same with the same kind of concerts? I was looking for something new, something fresh, some and and also in in the beginning when I started there w there was this new lounge, new jazz, Saint-Germain hype with which I could profit. so I had my my first gig ever was I even had a live band. My first gig ever was in the Ancien Belgique in Brussels, which is the most famous concert hall in Belgium. And it was just because of my records. The the the guy the programmer listened to my record said do you want to play here? So yes I have to find a band. and that’s how it all started. So I made music myself, but then invited a band and and we grew as a band. but yeah, I was just following my own path and and and my own taste. and maybe maybe that’s different from from another musician or or or normal musician. Is my main profession is teaching. I’m a professor, so I have my income.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Gert: And that is very important. So I have a job which I really love doing, and I’m I I can share my passion with students, which is so great. But that also means that I don’t have to make any compromise at all in making music. That’s just yeah, I have my income, and that’s that’s important. So I was just doing the things I I wanted to do, but it it it wasn’t that popular anymore because it was my music w went more into a cinematic style, more soundscape, and And then I had this frustration and then I decided, well, one of the universities called asked me, do you want to make a PhD? yes, why not? So I started a PhD and in music sociology. and then I started a brewery. And there was a time around two thousand twelve when we came to the place where we live for the moment, when I really thought I will never make music again in my life. Been there, done that. And I’m a brewer s from now on. So I started the brewery, my own hop yard, and I was brewing beer, beer, beer, beer, and teaching, of course, but no music at all. until Corona gets kicks in. the the time when a lot of people were just r yeah, reflecting, and and the same with me, I was sitting in my studio, I rediscovered my studio and said I I’m I’m going to make a new record. But because of the lockdown,

Matt: Right.

Gert: I decided I will do everything myself. So I do the composition, the whole producing, the mixing, the mastering. Mastering was something new to me, and there was really like this this click, wow, this is something for me. Like digging into details and and and and and and and sorting out how sound is working. So mastering that’s it’s made for me. So then I went studying at the mastering academy in Hamburg with Friedemann Tischmeyer, the guy who invented dynamic range. And then I did let followed lessons with Ian Shepherd in London. He was he was also a guest and at your podcast. he was one of my mentors. and then I started my own mastering service after this afterwards. But the main reason was I want to master my own music. That was my motivation to do mastering. yeah.

Matt: Right. You know, it’s amazing just the the thing you just keep piling up activity after activity. And I I love how how like you know, whether it’s beer or teaching or writing or mixing or mass, you know, like it’s unbelievable. Like I could probably come and spend a week with you and just be exhausted. ‘Cause you’re you’re doing so much. But when it comes to the so I wanna understand a couple of things. the teaching. What what specifically are you teaching?

Gert: Yeah. I’ve three two main things. The first part is is music history because I also I didn’t mention but I I wrote four books about history of popular music. so that’s my main that was my main teaching area since since I started teaching 30 years ago. that was teaching popular music history. and then also music sociology because that was my study. that’s one thing, and the other thing is music production. And I teach a few things. One is the introduction course for all jazz and pop students at the conservatory, who are entering the school because they want to play an instrument, and I’m teaching them creating music in the box. So they have to work in a DAW and with soft sins and etc. And I try to to to help them in in creating demos. And that’s in the first year. in the music production department I also teach mastering and I have my own cars on immersive sound. And that’s of course the cherry on the cake. yesterday we had a presentation of our students, because in our students in in this car’s immersive audio, they have to make an immersive track. We have a Dolby Atmos room in in at the university. so that’s the first part creating a track, but then they have to translate it into live and In the city where I’m teaching in Ghent, there’s a venue called Winter’s Circus. And it’s a fully equipped immersive Eliza concert hall, and then have to they have to translate their then to translate their track into an ELISA immersive music project. And yesterday it was the presentation of those tracks, which was so so lovely. I was I was really I I was riding home with with a big smile. and and and that’s why I get my energy. you want to help students and when you see the results and the students are happy and they they thank you so thank you for helping us. that’s that’s the most beautiful beautiful thing there is. Yeah.

Matt: You know, considering the amount of activities you do, how where do you find the discipline to do like for an example, when you when you wanted to get into mastering, you know, you went to Friedemann Tischmeyer, you went to Ian Shepherd, like you, you, you really focused in to figure out like how does this work? How should I be doing this? What’s the approach? How do you find the discipline to do each of these activities well?

Gert: Well, that’s the strong urge to understand something. I really can dig into something until the very smallest detail. for instance, I have a book, not a book where you write with it with pen and paper, like an empty book. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Matt: yeah, like like a journal or or or a notebook.

Gert: Only for the the lessons of of of of of those two mentors. I’ve two of those books written everything down, which I thought which was interesting. And that’s how I do always the translation. So I’m always writing down in in books. I’ve got plenty of them, according to the to the subject. and that’s when I see a YouTube video, when I follow a course, when I see when I heard something new, then I write it down. And time by time I just read all those notes again and and that’s how I memorize it, how how it’s how it’s getting structured inside my head. But that’s really my my my way of of of handling things is by writing it down. in fact I’m very bad in the digital age because internet is too much for me. It’s too much information. and I I really get a lot of stress because it’s too much for me. So I want to slow down and to and that maybe that’s the reason why I focus. Just to have I’m control freak. To have control on different things and and then I can really dig very deep into it. And it’s time by time. So the the the the the year I was studying with with Ian Shepherd and Friedemann Tischmeyer, that was the only thing I did that year. That was one year only mastering from morning until night. and and that’s the same and and afterwards it’s it’s with immersive audio and they’ll be honest. I just wrote a book. on creating and and mixing immersive music. So that means after a lot of reading, but the writing itself was like like four to six months full time, seven, seven, twenty-four, twenty almost w with a few hours of sleep. Yeah.

Matt: So with with Atmos, t talk to me about your journey there and and did you apply the same learning techniques that you did with mastering?

Gert: Yeah. Well, first of all, I I learned mixing by doing mastering. because then finally I understand what a compressor was doing and and other effects because that’s that’s what was a very good perspective just to have the general image and then go into detail. and maybe that’s also my my interest because for for for immersive it started like a lot of people from nowadays When Apple joined the the the the circus and and I could hear specialized audio on on my earbuds. that was my my first encounter. And that’s also one of the maybe the bottom line, because in in my opinion, the when you have a good immersive mix, the headphone experience will be better. And if that’s the only win we have, that’s already worth doing it.

Matt: Yeah.

Gert: So that was a starting point. And then I thought, maybe this can be something interesting. and mastering, I really love doing it, but but also maybe I’m I’m I’m I’m doing too much to to develop it in into a a fully full functioning job, to to get a lot of gigs. I’ve I’ve got some which is fine. but I think maybe there are already enough mastering engineers. I’m very bad in promotion. I’m I’m very good in doing things, but I’m very, very bad at promotion. so so maybe I thought maybe immersive can be can be a big next thing. Let’s let’s let’s dig into that. and then yeah it’s it yeah that’s really one of my my my big problems that I it has to go the all all the way. So only headphones wasn’t enough for me, so that I invested in in small speakers and and that it can can have an immersive setup at home. and from there it all started was just like experiencing and because always say hearing is believing, and once you hear this this immersed sound, then you’re sold. And because of that strong feeling, I th I said no, this is what I want to do. And so I was

Matt: yeah.

Gert: reading and writing and and I I I I think I’ve saw all the YouTube videos on on on immersive and all the atmosphere I I could find. I’ve I’ve I’ve bought all the books on immersive you can find on Amazon for instance. And then I’m studying and writing down and then I think maybe I have to do something with it. So and then the advantages when you when you’re when you work at the at the conservatory music higher music education then it just s suggested to to the school but maybe I can do Cars on immersive audio. yeah, okay, great. well, not from the beginning, but after a while, because I was come on, please, let’s do it. Let’s say finally, yeah, okay. it’s your ball, ballpark, and and just do it. and and that was the the the the urge to or the the motivation also to to write the book because I didn’t find a a good handbook for for the students, so I thought, maybe I’ll write it myself.

Matt: Yeah. Exactly.

Gert: But but that’s that’s how and it it all sounds more special than it really is. I’m just again busy with my passion and and and I want to to dig into things and and I’m I’m happy when I can can explore something and and and find some relationship between things that really gives a feeling of of satisfaction and that’s why I write books and and and I’m teaching. That’s I I’m always looking to to to connect the little the little dots. and and then I just thought, yeah, if I if I spend all this time in in studying immersive sound, maybe it’s good to to to collect everything in in one book. And and if this book can can help people then then I’m I’m very grateful.

Matt: and I do want to talk about the book, but before we do that, I want to ask you when you are researching anything and you’re reading, first off, are you are you do you do you read a lot of books? Okay. I I have trouble if it with certain books, it it depends. Like I get bored really easily, like I can do audio books.

Gert: Yeah. Yeah. A lot.

Matt: like any day of the week because I can it’s that listening is easy for me. Reading the light has to be great and I have to be comfortable and it’s just if there’s any distractions, it it becomes very difficult for me to read. I’ve I’ve discovered and So you don’t have that problem and you can easily read. When you do read, do you take detailed notes like you do okay, yeah.

Gert: Yeah, and and it’s I already told you I have H D H D R D R D H A S D, yeah. right?

Matt: A yeah, well ADHD?

Gert: A D A D H D, yeah, yeah. R D R D A D H D yeah. and

Matt: A attention deficit hyperactive disorder.

Gert: Yes, that’s it. That’s it. And that makes it difficult for me to read books on a computer. Because there’s always flickering and it’s always scrolling and there’s always new information coming in. Maybe an email is coming in. And does it that is very distracting for me. So when I read a book, I’m not online. I’m offline. I’m in my in my in my in my living room and I’m I can concentrate on the things I’m reading. And that’s that’s the only way in which I can yeah really concentrate because otherwise I’m always distracted. I’m distracted by everything. And so I have to close myself and the book is is helpful for for me. And then I take a lot of notes first with a with with a pencil I I I I I make some marks in in the book and then I reread it and sometimes I write it down in a new book with all the all the the most important things and that’s maybe that’s a reason why i love to write books too because it’s very difficult for me i also have got the dyslexia dyslex yeah okay so writing is difficult for me but even then i’ve got the strong urge to yeah just to to connect everything

Matt: Dyslexia, yeah.

Gert: Maybe that’s because there’s so much happening in my head that it w that I want to find ways in which I can structure it for myself. And one way to do it is is is writing a book or or teaching about it. Because when you’re teaching, you have to structure all your thoughts. and I learn most of the things by teaching on it. And because you have to explain it and talk it loud and and there are questions, and suddenly I realize, I didn’t know this, I didn’t know. I have to look it look it up. Sometimes say to the students, well we will discuss this further next week. And in the meantime, I’m I’m studying because I want to know the answer on every question. And that’s my motivation. And and and and yeah, and reading, writing, teaching helps me in in in structuring. And because I need it for myself, for my health. it’s also profit for me as an as a profession, and because I made my living out of doing this.

Matt: I I I think it’s really important that you the fact that you understand that you have dyslexia and ADHD and understand the the potential pitfalls of those two those two diagnoses and understanding what you need to do to make it so that things are organized. And I love that.

Gert: Mm.

Matt: you you go that you go offline to really focus that’s that’s really interesting so let’s talk about your book and because of your fantastic setup there could you flash your book up on the screen for our YouTube viewers look at that stereo was a nice try creating and producing immersive music okay that is great so in creating this book what is the goal

Gert: Mm. Yeah. Here it is.

Matt: for you in this book.

Gert: Well, this the title is is self ex explainable explorable. No. yeah, indeed, that’s the word. Yeah, English is not my mother language, so excuse me for that. Yeah. because when when I’m working in immersive audio and also at school with colleagues of mine and people you meet in the music industry and musicians, there’s a lot of hesitation when it comes to immersive Odolpia.

Matt: Explanatory. Self explanatory. Yes. I I I no, I totally get it, yeah.

Gert: it’s like, yeah, we’ve heard about it, but it’s not let’s wait and see. maybe it will go over, but we’re still fine with stereo. so to begin with, I want to persuade people, well, stereo was a nice try. It’s it’s it was good because we didn’t had any anything that was better. But now there is something which is better. So it’s time to explore that and embrace it. so the first chapter in my book is all the 13 reasons why Dolby Atmos sucks. So all the critique I hear, that’s my starting point. And then I try to give counter-arguments to say, well, maybe, but look at on the other hand, it’s this. And I think the central point in in in everything I do, and also in the book, is W when it’s when it when we’re talking about immersive music, I’m not that much interested in reworking an existing stereophile into a Dolby Atmos project. No. I’m interested in creating music in an immersive way right from the beginning. And I strongly believe that the real future of this format is when artists start to think immersive. And that’s my main goal of the book. Let them think about what is possible. So I’m I’m very interested in in the creation process. So it’s like recording with multiple microphones, but also working with virtual instruments in an immersive way. how can you use those in an in an immersive setup? And and then make a project which is and I’m I’m telling immersive because it’s more than Dolby Atmos. Dolby Atmos is a most well-known format for the moment, for the moment. But it’s one not the best one. And maybe it won’t be the one for the future. We don’t know. But the most important thing is to be future-proof and just make something which is immersive. That means work in multi-channel groups, multi-channel buses, work in in object-based, in channel-based, and scene-based, with with ambisonics. And when a project is finished, then you can decide what you’re going to do with it. You can turn it into a Dolby Atmos. But you also can turn it into Eclipse when YouTube will start broadcasting Eclipse. Maybe that will be the next big thing. Who knows? I don’t know. If you want to have a high quality audio file, well go to Auro-3D, which is a very good format too. If you want to make a live performance and you want to change it into ELISA for a live system in ELISA or in DOB or or mayor sounds, you can do it.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Gert: So it’s like one project in and and you also can make a stereo file out of it, of course, just like you. I’ll also do the the Atmos or the immersive mix and stereo at the same time. so that’s my goal. And and also in the book, I present a workflow in which you first create an immersive and then make an an mixing with a format agnostic way of working. And when it’s finished, then you decide which format you’re going to do. Of course, half of the book is mixing in Dolby Atmos. let’s be honest, that’s the most important thing. So that’s also the main thing of the book. But it’s just like it it’s it it’s when you talk about channel placement, for instance, it’s the same for Dolby Atmos or Eclipse, for instance. So it’s it’s it’s more general than than only this this this format. And

Matt: Yeah.

Gert: Yeah, one of the reasons is also that that well Dolby Atmos I really love and and I have a Dolby Atmos set up and I work in Dolby Atmos. but it it has got limitations, which is really a pity. And and and they refuse to change it, which is really a pity. And and there are better alternatives. so that’s why I always keep my eyes open on on new developments and and just yeah, we’ll see what a future will will bring, but I think that it’s better to be future proof. So my book is is is an encouragement for people to stop thinking only in stereo, no start thinking in immersive. And from the creation process, how you can place an instrument in in inside a room, how you work with space, how you work with delay in the creation of music. And then when you do the the the mixing, what what is the best way just to to to fill to fill this room? But I’m also discussing the difference between channel based, object-based, what is the the the the pros and the cons. can we is it important to have a lot of movement or not? things like that. and also there’s a chapter about mastering, where I do the comparison between stereo mastering and immersive. It’ll be Atmos master mastering. so this is considered to to Atmos, of course, because you’ve got Wavelap thirteen, which has a

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Gert: Atmos mastering program and also Fidel Audio Mastering Console. You’ve got two very good mastering programs for Atmos mastering. So do the comparison comparison between s stereo and and immersive. And then also the the last chapter is about the the the delivery formats, the D D plus jugs and the the AC fars and and other conversions which take place take place all over in in in in in the whole project process.

Matt: When you’re exploring a particular topic or writing a book, do you feel a sense of time pressure to get it done before, you know, is there a threat that you will lose interest in what you’re doing? Let’s say you’re 50% way through writing a book about immersive, you know, audio. Is there a potential, do you ever worry like, crap, I gotta get this done because I might lose interest and something else might catch my attention?

Gert: Mm-hmm. Well, I I have to give myself a deadline. In the beginning there’s no deadline, and I’m totally free, and that’s the most fun part of all, because then you’re just watching some videos and reading and and and exploring things because I I I I test everything myself in my studio. every plugin I I describe, I’ve tested myself. So those are the the the the fun things to do. but Then there’s this time that that you you have to to to finish it and and and to to to to to finalize everything. And for that I really need need a deadline. And in this case, it was in in in February there was a convention in in Helsinki for European convert conservatories, in which I did a a talk on immersive audio. So I thought that day I will present my book. And that was my personal deadline. And that’s something I need to to really finish it. And then the last month it’s like nonstop working just to to finish it. and I need to have this deadline because I want to do something else also afterwards. Then maybe there’s two months I do do don’t do anything at all anymore with immersive. I’m just doing other things, just to clear my mind and then it comes back. So it’s not I’m not doing everything at the same time. It’s just always

Matt: Right. Because you only have room and and time for so much. So I’m sure that, you know, the minute you discover there’s a new thing you want to explore, you’ve got to like shuffle out or move move aside one other activity.

Gert: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there’s always one big investigation at the time. So there’s one big topic I want to explore at at one specific time. So when I’m very into when I’m working busy with mixing in in in in Dolby Atmos that I’m not doing mastering anymore, at that at the same time. So or or or a lose interest. So luckily I’ve got some some mastering gigs just to Keep on going because otherwise I just maybe I forget things after a while. so yeah.

Matt: I know you you you have to do the activity to keep it’s like exercising the muscle.

Gert: Yes, indeed. So yesterday I got a question from from an artist. he he will release three full albums in the next month. will you master it? So yes, of course. So and that’s that’s good just to have have this this this practice, because otherwise I yeah I’m I’m I’m yeah.

Matt: When it comes to the the business part of everything for you, now you’ve got your teaching gig. So that’s that’s your regular income. How do you price yourself for the other activities? How do you establish, like, what’s a fair price for me to charge for mastering, for mixing for other people? what process do you go through to to determine what your value is?

Gert: Well in the beginning it’s like start low and see how high you can go. but there’s also an ethical question in this way that for mastering, when a student asks me to do mastering, I will give a huge discount. because it’s not because it’s a student. I won’t do it for free, but it’s not my regular price. Normally for mastering I’m asking 50 euro for a trick, but for student it’s thirty five. Yeah, and that’s cheap for students. and I can live with it. because that’s good. It’s also it’s an ethical thing. I I can’t charge the the same amount of money. but there’s a lot of things I I you you just do for free. You’ve got a lot of people asking you for advice and I want to give advice, There’s some some commu communities in which I contribute just for free. I’m giving mixing feedback for on on the line communities for friends. I’m just doing that for free because I love doing it. and when I do a talk, then yeah, of course I that that’s that’s see how how high can you go. I say I’ve got my minimum. if I do a talk, so this is my minimum amount. And it’s always like like a typical economic economical game. You you ask much more in the hope that you get a little bit more than than than the basic basic price. but I but I see all those things as as an as an extra extras to buy gear. That’s really the thing. That’s that’s how I I I work. So I do mastering to to to to pay back my my investments.

Matt: On the on the Right.

Gert: the same with immersive. I’ve do visits in my brewery, which also get a little bit of money, which I buy plugins from, because I’m I’ve I’ve got a huge collection. So I I’m that that’s also yeah, I buy too much things and and and also selling and reselling, but I’m yeah, I’m I’m a control freak, but also a controller freak. so I want this is new, I want to try it out.

Matt: Th let me ask you about that.

Gert: And and that’s that’s with all those mastering gigs and and and other gigs that’s yeah for for so at the end I have a free hobby. That’s how I see it.

Matt: You have a hobby that right, that pays for itself, essentially. Let me ask you about the trying things out aspect because there’s things I see that I think I don’t really wanna own that, but I do want to try it. And sometimes I confuse my need for something with the desire to just test it out, just for experiment’s sake.

Gert: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Matt: Do you do you also have a a a desire to just try things?

Gert: Yeah, and that’s that’s all I’m not saying it’s it’s really a sick situation, but but I think there’s a lot of us music engineers have got this this problem. maybe also fear of missing out. so something new. I I I need to know, especially when you present yourself as a as an expert, you you have to know it. so you can’t say, I don’t know that. No, no, you have to know it. So for software I buy too much, really too much. I buy plugins, even it’s that sick. Sometimes I buy plugins and I know I will never use it. But there’s also for my collection, just to to know what it is. It’s that’s stronger than myself. it’s only 20 euros. Okay, I buy it. And and that’s not good. For hardware, it’s something different. well, we all know there is this economical system where you can buy gear at the big shop and then send it back after a month. That’s what I do sometimes. I just try it out. And if it’s no, this this this wasn’t a bad this was a bad mistake, then I send it back. So we have to admit, yeah, I do that. So that helps a little bit without losing that much money. But on on the other hand, I still buy a lot. So it’s it’s justified to to to to work that way.

Matt: You mentioned communities and I realize you participate with my good friend Chris Selim in his his communities. you mentioned you’re a Nuendo user and and he runs, you know, he does a lot of Cubase-centric stuff. do you get a lot of enjoyment from participating in those communities?

Gert: Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And the fun thing is I I started by being a member myself a long time ago, just because I thought that maybe it’s interesting to get some mixing feedback, until I realized that, well, yeah, that’s I’m a teacher myself. And then it’s sometimes difficult to be a student again. and and I told Chris, I say, Well, I will help you, but I’m not just yeah. attending the sessions. And I said, well, join the team. And then I’m on the other side was together with Chess, Chess Roots, we we do the the monthly mixing revisions and and there’s a QA and and I really love doing it for two reasons. One is the same already explained. It also helps me structuring my thoughts because there are questions which are new and which I didn’t know before that makes me think, yeah maybe this is it this this is interesting. but also the second one is is like building a building a community so now i know chris now i know chess now i know some people that’s also interesting because those those are just lovely guys which i otherwise i would never know them and and and and and that’s it’s it’s it’s the same like playing in a band by doing this you’re part of a community so i’m i’m a and Einzelgänger, so I like to play myself on my own in my studio, but I also want to have contact with with people who think the same. And when you meet people with the same passion, the same interests, then that’s that really gives a very warm feeling. so after every session with with the the Chris Selim MCC, it’s called, I’m always smiling. It’s like yeah, and Then this has nothing to do with money or something. No, this is just because you want to share your your passion with with somebody else. That’s why I like to talk with you. That’s that’s the fun thing to do. That’s that’s and we need that. We we we’re we are human beings are very social beings, so we need to have social contacts. And for a modern music producer pr producer working in a in a in a studio, a lot of most of the times we work alone. then it’s important to have this this

Matt: Yeah.

Gert: these meetings. That’s why I love teaching. That’s that’s also my well, keeps me healthy. so

Matt: Yeah, it’s that’s interesting you say that because I I really think what I get out of doing these interviews is I just love to hear what people are doing, what their story is, how they’re you know, like I’m completely intrigued by your whole world and how you’ve structured it and some of the things you’ve learned about yourself along the way. I just find that endlessly fascinating to know. So I I I agree with you.

Gert: That’s also the reason why I listen to your podcast quite a lot, because just to hear these stories. That’s and I I know how how you’re working, so I really like this. It’s like it’s like meeting somebody, somebody which you don’t know. So, this is interesting. And sometimes I I hear podcasts w from people who who doing things which are totally different than my point of interest. But even then I found some things. this is nice, this is good to think about. do it do does it this way, and and that’s That’s that’s important. It’s like an an a window to to the world.

Matt: Let’s talk about beer. Tell me tell me how you got involved in making beer and and you have a proper brewery?

Gert: Yeah. Yeah, small one, but it’s it’s yeah. It’s well it’s it’s the same as as making music. It’s I’m I’m very bad in having hobbies. Let me explain. When I’m interested in something, something gets a passion, and a passion gets almost an obsession. then I’m so intrigued by something that I want to explore it, I want to know it. So music is not just enjoying music, no, that’s making myself and then presenting myself, pre-mixing me. And with beer, it’s the same. It’s like I’m I’m a I’m a a huge fan of of of the the strong Belgian beers. at my parents’ house there were always fifteen different kinds of beer, no lager beer, no industrialized beer, but the artisanal, real strong, heavy, pure beer. we we of for which Belgium is very famous for. we were really a very famous beer country.

Matt: yeah.

Gert: And then I just want to to start reading about how is beer made. And I thought, this is interesting. Maybe I have to try it myself. And then I bought a small kit to brew in the kitchen. And and my first brewing was was so nice to do and and and it tasted well. That’s that thought, this is great. I I want to do this more. And then we we live in the countryside and we’ve got this this like this this workshop place in an old part of the building where used to be horses long time ago before we lived here. and then I renovated one of the one of those spaces into a a full functioning small brewery. and and yeah the same stor story. I studied a lot of because I’m I’m a sociologist, that’s my my thing. I’m not a chemistry guy. I’ve never loved chemistry. But then I start reading books about how to make beer, making notes, studying, and and the same process as with mastering and immersive. And then I just try it myself and and and I can do every anything I want if I have a very strong intrinsic motivation. and if you ask me something which I don’t like, I’m very bad in it and won’t do it. So I’m very difficult with the things which like bookkeeping, for instance, doing promotion, I hate it. I hate the whole economical side of things. That’s not my world. but when I have very strong interest in like this making beer, then I just go into it. And the coincidence was that my grandfather, he was a brewer, and I’m the first person in the in the in the whole family, in the second generation, starting beer again. So he made beer one century ago. and and maybe that’s something unconsciously part of the whole story, because maybe that’s the reason why there were so many good beers at my parents’ place, because it was also part of that that family. and and then yeah, i it’s a nice story to to tell also that the I found some old bottles of my grandfather with his name on it, bottles which are more than a century old. and that was so so so so hard warmful to to to find this also for my father. and and and and this is yeah I I experiment with with with taste and the 10 years that I didn’t make or nine years that I didn’t make any music at all I was only doing my brewery Then was really professional brewery. I sold to all the restaurants and pubs in the neighborhood. at a certain time I had about more than than than 15,000 liters per year selling my beer. But the same thing, I’m very bad in promotion and economy. and the beer world is full of mafia, really. It’s it’s if if you know all those. those shops and and and the in-between persons who take all the money and and and and the the producers are really sometimes don’t have anything. So there was also during Corona I I decided no I don’t want to to waste too much energy in the bad vibes I got from the business part of the beer world. so I go f today I go to another brewery nearby, which is a bigger brewery. And they brew my recipe. So I changed my small brewery into a small labo where I can still experiment with new tastes and and make new recipes because that’s the creative thing about making beer, and the thing I really love doing is being creative. So I want to make recipes and that’s my i enjoyment. But when a recipe is finished and the brewery Brewing process itself, it’s always the same for every kind of beer. It’s always the same steps you have to do. The bottling of the beer, it’s always the same. So at the end, that’s that’s that’s boring for me. and and then it’s really work. unless it’s really paid that well, I can say, okay, I do it for the money. But even that wasn’t the case. because it’s such a small brewery. I couldn’t, I even couldn’t ask the production price from a beer because it’s so expensive.

Matt: Yeah.

Gert: To have a fully functioning official brewery with all the regulations there are, that it’s so expensive that I decided no, that’s it’s not worth doing it. So I still have my and I still do brewery visits. I’ve got one group a week maybe coming and visit me and do my talk. And we do a a tasting which is very nice doing it, and I can I can do my talk on beer, which I enjoy. And it’s still, yeah, something that’s also to to keep balance. maybe that sounds like a contradiction, but sometimes by doing different things at the same time, it it’s a form of to to relax because I’m not too pinpointing on one small thing, so it’s I’m spreading the attention and that’s easier to to to to to relative rel to to to make it more more in balance, that’s the word. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: More imbalance. what stresses you out?

Gert: Things I have to do which I don’t want to do. people who are not responding or not fast enough, in my opinion. people who are Yeah, too too much information. so for instance, the reason why I go to Ghent, which is again a forty kilometer drive from my home by bike, is because I get too stressed by taking a train and forced To follow conversations which I don’t want to follow.

Matt: because you’ll be on the train and you’ll hear other people talking in that and your mind

Gert: Yeah. Yeah. Especially on the phone and and and even with earbuds with with noise cancelling still coming through and and that’s too much for me. And then I’m so pissed when I when I enter my my school. And that’s yeah, I’m I’m I’m very sensitive to too much information and too much things happening around me. And and one of the really my bad sides is I’m I’m always thinking I’m am I am I doing the the right thing? And I’m always thinking maybe I this wasn’t good what I did. Maybe I said something which wasn’t okay. And during the night that keeps on going in my head. maybe that was wrong, I shouldn’t have done this. and yeah, that’s also part of my psyche is working, I think.

Matt: You know, I completely identify with what you’re saying about the the distractions of because I am super I’m hypersensitive to people like being on their phones and watching a YouTube video in public with the volume really loud, like like at an airport or wherever there’s enough distractions at an airport for most people, but add the cell phone or add the people talking at a movie theater, like I love that you take the the the time to bicycle to work to isolate yourself from all those distractions and to just focus on you and the road ahead.

Gert: Yeah. Yeah. That’s something you you you learn about through the years. because I I used to live in Ghent, which is a city, and I was live living in a in a city life with a lot of concerts and going to pubs and restaurants and a lot of social contacts and a lot of noise. but maybe there are some things which change when you get older and and some things are are more difficult. and I especially experienced this since my 50, 55. So the last couple of years. and it’s more or less like Corona that that time, because I was 50 during the lockdown. and then you just find a find a solution. So it’s always a contradiction. you’re you’re looking for s for some less distraction, but on the on the same time you also need social contact and and you you’re you’re looking for new people. So it’s yeah. Sometimes the balance is is is is is different, but yeah, time by time you you learn.

Matt: Now this part it is gonna escape some of you who are just listening. So if you if you’re on YouTube it’ll make more sense. But can you talk a little bit about your your setup there at home with the different video capability? Because you were telling me that you are set up to fully teach online. Is that is that correct?

Gert: Yeah. Yeah, that’s correct. because I want first I wanted to start my own on online academy. but then I realized I needed to have a YouTube channel and and promote myself to get a lot of subscriptions or something, which I don’t want to do. but I’m I’m still equipped, which is good also for teaching. sometimes when when there’s a a strike or something in the country, then I say, we do the lesson online. And the car of my system is is a roadcaster from road, the roadcaster video. You also got the roadcaster pro, which is the podcast thing with with only audio only. but this is audio and video, so you’ve got inputs from your screens from different cameras as much as you want, and almost. and You can also choose the the outputs. so I also can send my system audio through the same stream without any connection. I can show the screen of my of my main Mac. no problem. It’s just pressing a a button. Because for instance if I and you can have a lot of shortcuts, so I you can show my book, I can show my name underneath the screen. so here is if you’re on YouTube, this is my email address. You always can contact me if you want. this all the things this makes it very easy to do online teaching. even like I can have some sound effects in between, which is also nice.

Matt: That’s and and when did you start to realize that this was something that would augment your your online teaching or was this a part of the initial idea of putting together an online academy?

Gert: Well, it started viewing again during Corona. being a professor, all the lessons were online. And I just realized that these online lessons were so boring because just on Teams with small screens is not the same. so I first I wanted to have something by which the audio quality was better, but also that the video quality was better, just like a YouTube channel with with with 4K video and and a nice camera angles. I wanted to have this too for my online classes, even at at the university for for for for any lesson at all. and that’s why I thought maybe I’ve have to invest in this system. And if I do online teaching, then then I’m set. maybe I will restart the online academy one day, but we we’ll see. the book is first, and maybe the academy is afterwards. But I’m also open for yeah, work with other people. Also when I when I w do these online communities, this is this is easy. For instance, on the MCC if there’s a Chris Selim’s channel, if there’s a question about mastering, I just open my sc I just I don’t have to share my screen. I just show my my DAW. I can say, y this plugin. this is interesting. you’ve got much more possibilities and especially today there’s a lot of things happening online. So being equipped a little bit better is not that bad. It’s very fruitful.

Matt: I would agree. Yeah, because in this day and age, you know, there’s there’s so much that let me let me back up. In this day and age, it’s nice to be prepared because I think that the activities that we do, I mean, you’re y you have a lot of activities going on, and I don’t think everybody has as much going on as you do, but those that do participate in audio in any kind of video or interviews or teaching, the ability to share your screen at at in the most simple way and have a good mic and and talk effectively with people I think is super important. sometimes my wife at her corporate job, you know, I I see you know, maybe I see over her shoulder or something if she’s in a meeting and Like everybody’s just got horrible audio. Horrible audio and mediocre video. So

Gert: Yeah, and it of course it’s an investment and and not everybody is is preparing to do it. For instance, this roadcaster video it’s it’s about one thousand dollar. but yeah, if you use it a lot then and yeah. And and and of course I’m also self employed, so these are are expenses, so I I it’s in my bookkeeping. So

Matt: Which is not your favorite to do.

Gert: No, I have a bookkeeper.

Matt: Well, so your situation is a little bit different than than many of of the guests, but still my question about money that I typically ask is what is your philosophy about how to be I mean, you’re not just an audio professional, you’ve got so many other things going on, a teacher, audio professional, beer, you know, a a beer beer what would you say, a brewer? A brewer. how do you approach survival and and money?

Gert: Well that’s of course very important because it’s part of your survival strategy. you have to be sure that that that that you can live. And once again, maybe it’s difficult different from from from other people because I’m self-deployed as a side activity. It’s not my main job. And really if I don’t if I shouldn’t have a regular job like I have at university, my life would be totally different. This is really the car business for me. And maybe also an advice I can give to other people is like first find a job which is not that bad, but which give you a financial secure basics that you know I’ve got this amount of money every month, this I I need to pay, so I’m safe. I don’t have any financial troubles. And then you can see what else can you do on top of that. And that’s how I step into this life it’s like i I I’ve got some extra jobs and extra gigs for mastering and mixing or whatever. And okay, I’ve got new money to buy gear. And this way I keep this this this balance. But the the the basis is really to have this this this the same amount of money every month. So I know until I’m retired I will have my the same salary every month with which I can pay the house and and pay the bills and and pay my food and and yeah that’s a luxury but when you’re working in in a creative sector it’s it also give you so much freedom for instance if if you only are a mastering engineer just to to pay the bills at the end there’s so much things you have to to take into account and and buy new gear and do promotion and and so that That’s the disadvantage of being an fully self-employed. You have to do everything yourself. If you love doing it, then it’s fine. If you love doing promotion, I love doing bookkeeping, then it’s good. But in my case, I don’t like that. So I need really I need a job. but what a it’s I know it’s really a luxury, but when I do teaching, I don’t need to do any promotion, to be very cruel. If crude, crude, cruel. If I don’t have students, I even get money. So it’s the university who is attracting new students. I don’t need to do that. So every year there’s a new year and there are new students in front of me. That’s that’s wonderful. Because the system is doing the promotion, not myself. And it’s a platform in which I can share my my passion. So if I do a production class and I go home, it’s it’s like big smile, the biggest smile I can and I I always tell my students, just email me a anytime, also during holidays. There’s no problem for me. I answer your questions because I love sharing my my my ideas. So so then I’m not talking about money because I know the basic bills are paid. And that gives without that I don’t think I could live this life. I n really need this security that I know this is this is sorted out. If not, I I think my head would explode. Absolutely. Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, makes total sense. well, I I must thank you for your time. I I know that you you are doing a lot of different things. And so to make time for me, I I know that you know, you had to you you had to stop doing something else to allow the bandwidth for me to come in and and intrude. So appreciated. links will be in the show notes audience for everything we’ve talked about. yeah.

Gert: Pleasures totally mine.

Matt: Great to great to meet you and I maybe someday I’ll be in Belgium and we’ll meet. I’ve last time I was in Belgium I was passing through on a train.

Gert: Yeah, next time you’ll have to stop and we do a beer tasting at my place. That would be absolutely lovely. Yeah. Yeah. Because beer tasting, it’s almost an immersive experience.

Matt: that’s what we have to do. Okay. I’m in. Great, great note to stop on. well thank you again and and you take care.

Gert: Yeah. Take care of you too and very happy to be in the show.

Matt: My pleasure to have you. Thank you.

Matt: There’ll be a countdown. It’ll yeah, it’s no big deal. Let’s see. Okay. All right. We’ll get started by me saying, Alex, welcome to the podcast.

Alex: Thank you so much, Matt. Really appreciate you you having me on.

Matt: Yeah, great to see you. and great to meet you. John Greenham, former WCA guest and and old friend of mine, has long touted your name as someone that I should talk to. And it’s taken me a while to get off my ass and and and contact you. But we made it happen and you’re here and I’m very excited.

Alex: I’m go I know you’re busy. I’m glad you I’m glad you found time. John, there’s a John, there’s another another check in the mail, John.

Matt: Well I’m glad you found time with Yeah. Yeah, John. We’ll make sure and spell your name

Alex: yeah, John John’s incredible. Yeah, I’ve kno I’ve known John for I mean, I was living in San we were both living in San Francisco in the early two thousand like two thousand, two thousand and one. And that’s when we first met.

Matt: I had no idea. ‘Cause I’ve been here since nineteen eighty eight. So we’ll we’ll get into that. But let’s talk about let’s talk about the state of the state. Let’s talk about who you are. What do you consider yourself? Where are you living? What what tell people what we need to know about you just right up front, the basics.

Alex: Yeah. Yeah. Mm, okay. Right. Well, I’m predominantly a a producer. I you know, I do some engineering and and mixing, but predominantly production is is my thing. And I’m out here in Joshua Tree. So I spent I spent many, many years in LA, San Francisco, moved to New York City for nine years and had a studio out there. But, you know, San Francisco and New York, like me if I wasn’t in the music industry that’s probably where I would be. San Francisco. But you but I don’t have to tell you that it’s it’s a little pricey, real estate is tricky and expensive and you know, that was I love living in New York, but you know, I had this tiny studio of the size of a cat box and it was five grand a month and it was you know, it was just ridiculous. And so, Then I moved back to LA and we were actually had a a house we had we had a rented house in LA with an amazing landlord, a good friend of mine, and and I was literally recording bands in the front room. And my wife was incredibly patient and wonderful about it, you know, but I after seven years of that she was like, something’s gonna need to change here. We cannot keep doing this. So I was like, okay, okay, okay. And LA is just completely unaffordable at this point too. I had a number of friends that had moved out to the desert and were sort of encouraging me, you know, you should come and check out the desert, it’s really beautiful. And you know, I felt like yeah, it’s too hot, there’s nothing out there, it’s you know but over time as we came to start visiting more and more, we were like, No, it is really special out here. It’s great and we could afford to buy property out here. Still not cheap, but you know, compared to New New York or LA or San Francisco, yes definitely affordable. So I decided to move out here and build a studio out here and I sort of do this it’s s it’s it’s sort of a package deal. you know, you come out to the desert, I’ve got accommodations for people to stay in here, so you sort of camp out and

Matt: Yeah.

Alex: And make your make your record.

Matt: Wow. That’s nice. I I really I want to come back. We’re gonna circle back to that because I really want to get into the depths of that. let’s talk about, let’s go back in time. Where did you grow up?

Alex: I grew up in the Midlands in the UK. I was born in Birmingham and then moved to Stoke-on-Trent. Sort of like out of the frying pan into the fire. I went to I went to college in Nottingham and that’s when I really started playing music because I had a band in Nottingham. We got signed to a UK label, but then the the UK label had

Matt: Ha ha ha

Alex: What do you call that? Like an upstream deal. So like, you know, if you if you start to sell enough records, then you’re automatically gonna be on Columbia Records. You know, classic kn early nineties thing. And so that’s what we did. So then we had a US label and we were touring all the time over here. and that’s when I met my American wife, at the ex wife now, but at the time.

Matt: Right, right.

Alex: you know, so I was spending a lot of time in this country and then one thing led to another and I just sort of ended up staying really.

Matt: In your upbringing, what was your exposure to music or technology?

Alex: Absolutely none. I mean, you know, when I was growing up in the early to mid eighties, I mean I was a huge music fan. I mean music absolutely saved my life when I was a kid. You know, so I was a huge music fan. But because of where I was growing up in a small town in the middle of the country, I mean it’s not like I grew up in London, I wish I had. But, you know, where I was there was no experience like that. There was Y there was no resources, there was nothing at all. looking back on it, I in a way I th it sort of makes me appreciate it because when you have nothing like that, you really have to work that much harder, you know, to to do something creative. And I think that did it definitely informed who I am or who I became, you know. But yeah, there wasn’t

Matt: Okay. Yeah.

Alex: there was no resources whatsoever. So it was like me and my mate Ben we would we would sort of jam on whatever instruments we could we could put together and, you know mostly it was like us trying to play Sisters of Mercy songs or or Killin’ Joke songs or something. you know, yeah.

Matt: Ha ha ha. So when you started out, was your first exposure was as a player? Okay. And when did you start to become, whether as a player or not, when did you start to become aware of or or start to raise questions about how do they make these records? How is this done? How is your awareness of production or or curiosity about it?

Alex: yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Well so you know, a few years later when I was at college I had this band, that was the band that got signed. And just before we got signed, we went into a local studio. It was just a guy with literally a four track. So you got drums on track one, bass on track two, guitar on track three and vocals on track four. And that was it. You know, if you wanted to add a second guitar, well you you couldn’t, you just had to do it. But it was a really great experience because I loved the whole vibe of it. But I mean I must admit it’s it’s not his fault, but it it was a very, very small and rinky dink studio, so it wasn’t terribly impressive. But but I did really enjoy the experience of it. And even at that stage I sort of got the feeling, you know, most musicians will say, you know, I live for the road, I I want to play the gigs, the adoring fans and all I always felt like, I don’t really love that. I like, yeah, I like it, but that’s not like when we go into a studio and realise a song, that’s when I really come alive. It you know, that’s really special to me. So when we got signed to that label, they said, okay, see now you’ve got a bit more budget to work with, you need to get a producer. And we were like, why do we need a producer? We we know what I said. We’re a punk rock band and we We know what we’re supposed to sound like. And the label like, Yeah, but you know, like a really good producer can can help you see things in the way that you hadn’t seen before, or can be really objective in a way that you can’t possibly be. Okay, sure, we’ll try it. And I I was very resistant, actually. The the other two guys were not, but I was particularly resistant. Cause like a lot of artists, I felt like These songs are my baby, you know, I don’t I don’t need somebody messing with it. So it took and and so that producer was Colin Richardson, a British producer. I mean, of course he won me over because he’d worked with Sisters of Mercy and and a lot of punk records, GBH and Batfish Boys and all this stuff that I that I grew up with that I loved. So of course, yeah, I’m gonna trust this guy. He’s done something that I

Matt: Well, well

Alex: That I really respected. But working with Colin was a life-changing experience for me. For one, he took us into this incredible studio, which is this place, Sawmills, that we briefly talked about earlier. So, you know, I’m a twenty-year-old kid from Stoke-on-Trent, never seen anything, you know, never been anywhere or really done anything much. And we drive down to Cornwall, the furthest tip of England.

Matt: Mm.

Alex: And it’s basically like you drive to the tip of England and there’s no main road to this the studio’s on an island. So a power you you and there was no cell phones back in those days, right? So you had to go to the pug and ring the studio and say, We’re here, can you come and pick us up? And they’d send a power boat out across the lake. You’d load all your gear into his power boat, and by this time it was like the middle of the night, because it’d taken us twelve hours to drive down there. And and you go into this, it w literally is an old sawmill stone building. so it’s an incredible incredible studio. Muse did a lot of records there, Stone Roses, and there’s been a lot of really great records done there. And working both in that studio and working with Colin as a producer, you know, so this time we’re working on two inch twenty-four track. with a big Trident desk and big, big monitors and the whole thing. So that really just blew my mind. You know, that was I was just sort of we were halfway through the album and I was asking Colin already like, how can I do this? How can I do what you’re doing? I wanna do I wanna do this the rest of my life.

Matt: So the shift was starting to happen right then.

Alex: Absolutely, yeah. And that’s when I realised like I’ve still gotta do touring with this band ’cause that’s part of the commitment of being in a band. But honestly, I’d much rather just be in the studio, you know, than than touring. And so I knew I you know, the writing was already on the wall. I you know, I toured as much as I could handle really, but you know, the touring lifestyle is not really my personality. You know, I’m a I’m a bit of a homebody, I like tinkering with stuff and just working on music, you know, so it felt like, okay, the studio is really my play.

Matt: What was your primary instrument? Okay. That’s I think that’s fascinating that it took you’re you were hesitant in the beginning, yet you go through this process and it just your mind just opens up in such a huge, monumental way.

Alex: Guitar and vocals. You know, Colin Colin was incredible and Colin showed me what a producer can do and what a good producer can bring out of a band, in that he adapted, he he could tell that, you know, we were a punk rock band and we were coming from that background and we didn’t need a very strong, you know, dictatorship idea from a producer. It was more s you know, Colin approached it more like What are your favorite bands? What are your favorite records? Can we play some of those? Can we listen to, you know, what they did and incorporate some of that influence? And you know, so he would ask us, you know, what do you think about drums? Should they be very dry or should they have reverb on them? And I would play him this birthday party records or killin’ joke records, you know, that had this very aggressive gated reverb sort of thing on it. And he’d go, Okay, I got it. You know, now let’s see. But I don’t want to do that exact same thing. Let’s see if we can how can we make that work with what your sound is and create something new with it. So he was brilliant. Yeah. The the only the only thing is that at that time Colin had moved much more into being a metal producer. Which you know, and metal is like like I don’t do metal because

Matt: That’s very different.

Alex: In metal everything’s about making everything perfect, right? Because you don’t you don’t really have a song to rely on necessarily. It’s more about the technical side of things and and this, you know, precise playing. Which is of zero interest to me. You know, I have no interest in that whatsoever. It to me it’s more about the vibe and and you know, we were a sloppy punk rock band. So there was a little bit of of

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alex: of batting heads on that of you know, against how tight Colin wanted everything to be and how loose we wanted everything to be. But I think we you know, we had a really good middle ground in the end.

Matt: So the what are the takeaways from Colin? Because that style of production, that very engaging, what are you let’s play some of these songs and these drum sounds like some some producers would not go that direction. They would you know they would just say, Okay, here’s what we’re doing.

Alex: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean there’s so many producers you would just come in and they would say, This is the way we’re gonna do it and I don’t wanna hear your opinions and you know, and I I I often have meetings with potential clients, they’ll come to the studio and we’ll chat and I’ll ask them, you know, what’s your experience in with past records and I’ll hear stuff like that. I’ll hear that they, you know, had an album made by somebody that didn’t listen to what a a word that they said and they just stamped their own sound on it which wasn’t even good. It’s one thing stamping your sound if it’s amazing, but if it’s not even good or if it doesn’t align with the artist’s vision, then what’s the point? I mean there you know, there there are some cases there’s maybe certain clients I have that come in that say, look, we’re just open to being molded. Like we we’ve written the songs, now you do your thing with them. That’s what we want. And that’s great too, but you know but only if somebody’s expressly gives you that permission.

Matt: Yeah.

Alex: Yeah, so Colin was really, really good at that at trying to take our influences into into account and where where we were coming from. But you know, Colin he did also do a lot of things. I mean, he showed me so many things that I still use to this very day. So many little tricks and, you know, concepts. There’s also a lot of things that Colin did that I absolutely hated and that I to this day, you know, think, God, I’m never gonna do that. It’s just so ridiculous.

Matt: Yeah.

Alex: Colin he really had this whole concept of everything has to be isolated. To I mean to a ridiculous degree. you know, we all understand the the point of isolation to some level, but Colin took it to a very ridiculous degree. And then I know that that made mixing very difficult for him. Because you you have everything so incredibly isolated that it It’s very difficult to make it sound like a band.

Matt: Yeah. Absolutely. Where did you tell me about the post that record? Like after you’re after the end of that record, after the end of the touring for for that situation, like while you’re on tour, I assume you’re like, I gotta get to my next thing, which is what I want to do, which is production. where did you take this newfound love of the studio and production after this band?

Alex: Well, I was I was very, very lucky because you know, a a lot of people they have to go and work at an a a studio and clean toilets and be an apprentice and try to work their way up. The thing is, I would have done that if it was available, you know. I mean and if I’d been living in London, yes, I could have done that. But where I was living, I mean, there was only one recording studio there and they were already They were already filled up. It was it just wasn’t really an option. And so, you know, at that same time I come to the US and was spending a lot of time here. And that band that I was in was fairly well known at the time. And so, you know, it it was by touring with other people and and being around other bands. They would say, you you know a lot about all the studio stuff, right? Can could you help us with our album? And so I was very lucky that I fell into that thing. And and I actually it we it was a little bit interesting because I started doing that and I quickly realized I don’t know enough yet to do this and to and to charge people money and be a part of it. So I would have to have a conversation with people like. I’ll produce your album, I’ll work on your album, but either you don’t pay me because I can’t guarantee it’s going to be any good, or maybe you should find somebody else that is more experienced. And so with that in mind, I realized okay, I need to step back a little bit and I need to really learn more before getting too deep into this situation. So

Matt: You never had experience the T boy or the tape op position. It’s

Alex: No, it just I would have loved to. I would have absolutely done it. It just wasn’t available, I mean, largely because of my location and then spending so much time, you know, doing the band i and touring I wasn’t really available to be able to be in one place for long enough. So I finally I finally settled over here in first in Arizona. and just basically started working at local studios there. And then and then I got divorced and I moved to L actually I I tried to move to San Francisco but ended up in LA. yeah, well that’s the thing about LA. It’s like I’ve spent a large part of my life trying to get away from it or trying not to go there and to go to other places that I actually like better.

Matt: Just fell a little short.

Alex: But the thing is I’ve come to realise that LA is actually a wonderful place and especially if you’re doing music and you know, I have so many friends in LA and it’s it’s always treated me really, really, really well. So I sort of feel a bit bad, you know, I always talk shit about LA and you know, eventually so many people have a love hate relationship with it. I’m not alone in that. But I do feel like that it’s really helped me so much.

Matt: You know, coming from small towns in the UK and then coming to places like Los Angeles, I’m I’m curious about your initial impressions of America and and these big cities, because not only is it I mean, you could have moved to the big city of London, but here you are in a big city in America. So what were those early days like in terms of cultural shift or you know, trying to get acclimated to a new spot? Like that.

Alex: Right. I mean, yeah, it’s there was the the cultural shift of the coming immediately out to the west coast of seeing, you know, the car culture. So when I was living in England, it was always living in a city with a city centre and you could and you would live in the suburbs. So you could either walk into the city centre or get a bus or a train. It was dead easy and everything was all in one place. And so of course when I came out to LA and I said, Where’s the city centre? And people would say, Well, there ain’t one. There’s it’s like forty different cities all sort of jammed together over a fifty square mile radius. and you need a car. You’re not going anywhere without a car. So it was very difficult and for a long time I sort of struggled with that. Why isn’t there a central area? It doesn’t make sense to me, you know. Until of course I finally realized you can fight LA all you want, but I don’t think it’s gonna change just for you. So you be better get used to it. But I I immediately in LA found people incredibly friendly and open and frankly totally different from the UK. You know, the the UK Certainly at that time, early nineties, it’s just not a very welcoming place it’s not a very open place. You know, it’s difficult. People are not particularly friendly, especially to strangers. There’s a cultural barrier there, you know. And coming to LA, people were immediately open and and interested, and especially interested in people coming from other cultures. So I was like, wow, you’re you’re actually interested that I’m from somewhere else. That’s fantastic. And so I immediately, you know, I would just basically go to gigs in LA, go to gigs in Hollywood and and go and see a lot of bands. And if I saw a band I liked, I would go and talk to them and, you know, say, Well, you know, what are your plans? I I know a bit about recording, I know a few studios around here, I could help out.

Matt: Hmm.

Alex: And you know, so I got a lot of experience that way.

Matt: Were you intimidated at all by the culture at that time?

Alex: No. No, not intimidated, no. I I found it exciting, I think, you know, being in a being in a new country, being in a new town. Like I said, made so much easier because people were so open and friendly. I mean if I’d moved to New York City immediately, that might have been a bit more difficult. You know, I think that there’s specifically being in California is you know, people are very friendly and open. And you know, you could argue it’s probably ’cause they wanted something from you. And maybe that’s the case. But it’s certainly it’s certainly made my life a bit easier. You know, I mean I don’t know. I mean LA it is filled with music industry sleaze bags. Absolutely. And I’ve met you know more than my fair share of But I’ve also met hundreds and hundreds of people who are genuine music lovers, creative, normal, good people. And so I found that very inspiring. So so no, I didn’t find it intimidating. It’s just more inspiring really. And it you know, and I and I sort of felt like I kept sort of feeling like, well maybe I should go back to England ’cause I do still have my family there. And but at the same time it I felt like things are going pretty well here. It it really wouldn’t make sense to do that at the moment. And And now it’s thirty two years later.

Matt: And and we could dedicate a whole podcast to this, but I just looking at the two different cultures, you know, it makes me wonder with England in particular, like, you know, the difference there is is that, well, you know, in World War Two, Los Angeles wasn’t bombed, right? And and the UK was. And I wonder if the effects of World War Two had long lasting impact on the culture of England and that more buttoned up, you know, little more cautious approach to things versus, you know, I’m isolating Los Angeles, but America in general do doesn’t have that same history. So I don’t know. It’s definitely getting me to think about, you know, the history and the cultures of of the UK and and America.

Alex: Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think I think you’re right, you know, World War Two does have a a lot to do with it and but it’s also it’s also just a part of British culture. It’s probably been like that for thousands of years, you know. I mean I just you know, when I was growing up there, that’s I just thought that’s how the whole world was. You’re cold to each other and there’s a lot of fighting, you know. I just thought that’s wow, the world sucks. It’s fucking awful, you know. And then I started with the band we started travelling, we would go to France and Holland and Spain and be like, Wait, people are open and friendly and not gonna claim they’re perfect societies, but they were definitely much more open and less violent and, you know, much more inviting than the UK.

Matt: And, you know, I’ve I’ve said it before on this show to others, you can’t beat Los Angeles weather. I mean to especially you come from the UK and you get that sunshine and go to the beach and

Alex: It’s well, it’ll it’ll make you laugh, but that’s the only thing I didn’t like about it. I Well, I don’t you know, I I prefer the cooler climates, right? So that’s when I first went to San Francisco I was like, This is it. This is this is my jam. So I I prefer San Francisco. I mean i winter in LA is wonderful. It’s great, you know, everyone else

Matt: Little too s a little too sunny. Yeah.

Alex: is complaining, it’s fucking raining, it sucks, it’s cold, you know, I’m like, this is perfect. It’s seventy degrees. It’s great. You know. I’m like the one light whiny Brit that’s that’s like winter in LA is awesome. but the you know, yeah, the rest of the year it’s a bit it’s a bit warm for me.

Matt: Can you talk a little bit about your your trajectory in America and and the progression of growth with the records that you made and and how you made these leaps to, you know, in g you know growing your career?

Alex: Yeah. Well, so I started off in in LA as you know, and then at some point I was like, I need to go to San Francisco. That was always the plan and so let’s just do it, you know. And so I moved up to San Francisco and and didn’t really know anybody there at all. But it worked out great and you know, I’ve been very lucky in this country I always seem to like fall in with a good crowd of people. So I I feel very, very fortunate. And I sort of fell in with the the studio Tiny Telephone and John Vanderslice. So John and I connected on a really deep level and I loved his work and and John knew that I was really into analogue tape and the the whole old school vibe and and that was his jam as well at that time. This was around two thousand, two thousand and one. And so he was like, You know how to work a tape machine, you know how to do all this stuff? You should work here. So, you know, at at the time I I sort of felt like, you know, okay, I’m I’m a producer, right? And that means I’m sort of putting my taste and my ideas onto this project. And John, what you’re asking of me is that I just become a house engineer and I basically would just press record and not have any of my ideas, like the opposite of the producer, right? But I thought about it and I thought it could be really, really good because because I didn’t start off working in a studio, for example, I had no idea how to mic a trumpet or what mic to use or where you where would you I knew about rock guitars and drums, yeah, but not I didn’t know how to mic strings or trumpet or And so working at Tiny Telephone, you know, you’d have all these different bands that would come in, every from indie rock to these funk bands to mariachi bands that were local bands that would come in. And so I’d be like, Okay, now’s your time to learn how to micro trumpet. And I’m gonna and I remember like micing it and the guy saying, That’s not how you micro trumpet, man. Put it over here and you should use a ribbon mic. You should try that and I like, right, okay. Yeah, let me try that.

Matt: Yeah.

Alex: And you know, so slowly I learned a lot of the engineering side. And it also because I worked at the studio, it gave me a lot more time to experiment. You know, when I’m producing bands, I’m in an expensive Hollywood studio, it’s fifteen hundred a day, and there really isn’t much time to experiment with anything. But working at Tiny Telephone, I kinda felt like, you know, people would do a few takes and then leave early and I’d like, Great, I’m gonna try messing around with this mix and see what you know, let’s see what this compressor does or let’s see what this does. So it was really great experience for me. And I felt like after a few years of that, I was then able to go back into producing on a much deeper level and and more more connected on a technical side certainly. and then after that I d I did eventually move back to LA and That’s around the time, probably 2004, when I and I’m sure everybody else started to notice: whoa, these budgets are just suddenly going way down. Like way down. And so I found myself, you know, okay, if if we’ve only got 15 or 20k to make an album now.

Matt: Okay.

Alex: And all these studios in Hollywood are fifteen hundred a day and a reel of tape is three hundred dollars and we’re gonna need ten reels of tape or twenty reels of tape. And so I found, you know, we were really rushing through records like it sounds pretty good, not perfect, but you know, we’re running out of time, we just gotta go, we gotta and you know, some of the most well known records that I made were done that way, like the At the Drive-In record, which was done very, very, very quickly. And I sort of regret that, you know, because I sort of felt like there wasn’t really time to mix, you know, it was sort of like you put the faders up and be like, Well that’s that’s what we got. That’s all we have time for. There isn’t any more money or time. And I I you know, I do regret that a little bit. And so I started to think, I probably really need to get a room. You know, and at that time Pro Tools was coming in.

Matt: Okay. Mm-hmm.

Alex: it sort of felt like, well, maybe this is an affordable way to have a smaller room at least to take up some of that that budget, you know. So I would maybe I would go to Grandmaster or I would go to Sound Factory or I’ll go to Paramount, cut the drums in a nice big room, and then all the guitars and vocals, like, well we’re only using one mic, right? So let’s just go to my place and we can do all that stuff there. And so there became, you know, a a j shift for everybody, the whole paradigm, right, of of more the the home studio sort of thing. I it wasn’t something I particularly wanted to do. I didn’t it wasn’t my You know, because then you’re you’re also running the business side of it. There’s equipment that breaks all the time that has to be fixed and you know, and you have to deal with with clients in a different way than when you’re simply a producer. You’ve got to watch out if somebody eats a burrito and leaves it open, you know, in in California we have the the ant problem. Y you know, so

Matt: Yeah.

Alex: It’s all that sort of stuff that I didn’t really want to be dealing with, but is ultimately is the only way to do it. So then I had a studio in LA, I moved to New York City and had a another studio out there. And and that that was really good, but yeah, it was ultimately as as budgets continue to come down, it just felt like why am I in the most expensive city in the world trying to run a a recording studio in dis you know severely damaged business.

Matt: What what were your observations between differences between Los Angeles and New York? And and because you’d you’d had experience in both cities and obviously, you know, the budget is is continually going down, but other than that, like what are the noticeable differences to you at that point?

Alex: Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean New Yorkers in general, or maybe it’s East Coast, is it’s a bit more of a direct thing and it’s you know, it’s quite a cliche. I’m not sure if it’s quite the same anymore. Yeah, I’m I’m sure it certainly used to be very much that way, you know, whereas California people were very relaxed and and open and easygoing but but very fake, right? That’s the cliche. And in New York it’s very aggressive and in in your face and very in intense, but honest, brutally honest, you know, you what you see is what you get. And I felt like I wanted to experience that. You know, it’s maybe a bit closer to British culture.

Matt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex: and it is. But I you know, but I also experienced that New York is also totally filled with fake music industry people and and passive aggressive weirdo fake people who are just nice to you because they they want something from you, you know. New York in particular, I know there’s a lot of it in LA, but New York in particular there’s a hell of a lot of

Matt: Yeah.

Alex: rich kids who have fantastic studios that they have no idea what they’re doing with the with those studios. They they bought their way into the studio industry. So I experienced a lot of that. But you know, generally I I don’t think it was drastically different, you know, I that I met a lot of really, really great people in New York as well. I think it’s because it’s harder to live in New York and everything is more intense, there is a little bit of that element that comes across in people’s attitude and and in the music too. You know, but there is there is also a great feel of, you know, whatever it is like we can do this, you know. Like you you always see in New York, you know, someone’s delivering a couch, right? And they’re like there’s a fifth floor walk up with no no elevator, right? In LA they’d just be like, Fuck it, forget it. I’m going home, not gonna do this, you know. Or I’m I’m I need to go home and smoke a smoke a joint and think about it, you know. In New York they’re like, Fuck it, we’re gonna do this. We’re gonna do this right now, got some rope, we’re gonna do this, you know. So there’s that kind of attitude that

Matt: Right.

Alex: The I respected that, you know.

Matt: From a survival perspective between those two cities and those and that time period in general, the your time spent in LA, your time spent in New York, your survival and and with the budgets going down, at any point did you think, okay, well, I better go get like a day day job here, or I better augment my income because it’s just getting really thin.

Alex: Yes, I’m sure everybody everybody in the music industry has. you know, and when you’re a when you’re a freelance producer, for everybody it’s it’s very up and down, you know. Sometimes I go months without seeing my wife or talking to anybody else ’cause I’m so busy. Back to back sessions. And then all of a sudden it stops. And I have six weeks with nothing to do. And you know, that’s you you you start to get a little bit nervous about it. What’s what’s going on? You know, I have no income, I have nothing coming in. For me, it’s always been something always comes up and then suddenly I’m slammed again for six months and it’s it’s always up and down. But when you have those down periods, yeah, that’s definitely concerning. And as you see budgets generally coming down and down, you start to think, well, is this really viable? long term. But the thing with me is there there’s two things with me. A, I’m too old to do anything else. I don’t have any exper you know, can you imagine my my C V is gonna say, you know, miserable Brit with 30 years of experience in music can barely use a computer. It it’s like I it’s I’d be you know, I’d be minimum wage at Home Depot. And not that there’s anything wrong with that, but that’s where I would be at my age that would be a bit difficult. And yeah, but the other part of it is there isn’t anything else I want to do or really am capable of doing. So so you have to make it work. And, you know, whether that means you just gotta get out there and put yourself out there a bit more and and hustle a bit more or or at least use your time creatively, you know. So anytime I’ve had a down period like that, I usually put myself more into the creative side, get to work with musical projects with other people and and try to stay busy with it.

Matt: Do you think that your time at Tiny Telephone, did that help solidify your confidence about your engineering to complement your production skills?

Alex: Absolutely it did, yes. yeah. Because before that I was I was a producer in the in what is sometimes a little bit of a pejorative term, you know, it’s like the guy that sits at the back of the room and says, it sounds great, turn the snare up. My you know, I was a lot more involved than that, but I didn’t really understand a lot of the engineering. I like I I was like I you know, I was I was engineering. But there was I was bluffing my way through a lot of it. And that, you know, it doesn’t instill you with the confidence you need when you know you’re bluffing through some of it. A lot of the stuff I would do would be h happy accidents or you know, I would like, Wow, that sounds really good, but I actually have no idea how I did it, you know. Or I just kinda chanced upon something. To be fair, that does still happen even now and that that’s great. But yeah, working at Tiny Telephone really allowed me that that freedom to b to big to get deeper into the engineering side of it. And now and you know, and you develop a lot of methods that work really well for you, right? Not that I always rely on them, but they are there if I need them. And so oftentimes if I’m producing, I’m also engineering and it’s just sort of autopilot. You know, I’m I’m doing the engineering stuff and it’s just second nature. I don’t think about it too much. The The only issue occurs is when something technically goes wrong, right? And then you have to switch from producer, which is much more creative, vibe driven, to being very technical and like methodically testing patch cables or whatever it is. You know, that that’s it’s two different things. So you know, on some of the when when it’s When it’s possible, when it’s doable, I hire an engineer on the sessions to take up some of that engineering. I still do a lot of it, but you know, I would I wouldn’t be comfortable, I don’t think being a hundred percent hands off because it’s not who I am. To me the the the sound and the electronics and the vibe and the emotion, they’re all linked. together. So it it’s it wouldn’t make sense for me to completely detach. In the same way that it wouldn’t make sense for me to b only engineer. I’m la and I’m way too opinionated and I have way too much experience to simply engineer and not have an a an opinion that I could offer to people.

Matt: Yeah, because I’m sure you you like many of us hear like, okay, we’ve got a great sound, but this part you’re playing, you know, or for me, like I’m I’m s I get super nitpicky with drummers and I’m like, let’s switch the ride symbol. The snare drums tune too high, it’s clashing with that. We and it’s just that that sonic puzzle making that we do.

Alex: Yeah, yeah, totally.

Matt: But it’s interesting because had the like the budget started to go down. So like that forced a lot of people’s hand, a lot of producers’ hands into having to engineer because if you didn’t, you’d eat up your budget hiring the engineer. So you kind of have to take on both tasks. I wonder if your trajectory would have been different if budgets had stayed solid and you could have just said, I’m gonna produce.

Alex: Absolutely, yeah.

Matt: I’m gonna hire an engineer and stay and stay on this side of it, or if you naturally would have gone and and absorbed that knowledge anyway, because

Alex: No, I think I think I definitely would ’cause like I said before, it’s to me it’s all it’s all linked. It’s part of this the same thing. This the sonics and the vibe and the emotion. It’s all linked. And I and I find it hard to detach that. There I do do it sometimes, you know. Sometimes I really step back and let somebody else do it and and kind of oversee it a little bit. But I have to really force myself to stay away from the desk and to, you know, shut up about all the technical stuff. It it really depends on the project I think, you know.

Matt: Mm. You know, you mentioned a divorce earlier, and if I may ask, was that partly precipitated by you being gone a lot?

Alex: no, nothing to do with that. I we we were just we were just way too young and a bad fit, you know.

Matt: okay, okay. Yeah, okay. So but I’m sure you would stress the importance of finding the right partner in in your romantic life b because of the nature of being away and, you know, doing the job.

Alex: Absolutely. It’s it’s always been a problem in every relationship I’ve ever had. And you know, until I met my now wife, who’s incredible and, you know, was the first person that, you know, just said, I understand you do what you do, I really respect it. Of course I’m gonna miss you when you’re gone, but there’s no way I’m gonna tell you not to go or you know I’ll be here. And you know, I’ve I’ve ha I’ve had f I have a lot of friends that are touring musicians, you know, and I know a lot of times we’ll have the discussion where their partner is very angry at them about the amount of time that they’re gone. you know, it’s it is very difficult. But it at the end of the day it comes down to that it’s that simple thing. If you love someone, set them free. You know, you’d like that’s what I would my friends that are going through that, I would say I would say to them like whatever no matter how angry you are, and I know you’re upset and you feel lonely because they’re away so often, but don’t hold it against them and don’t because all you do is make it worse. If you show them love and you show them respect and and let them do their thing, you’re probably gonna find that they will actually want to be away less. And I’ve seen that happen many, many times with couples of mine that are friends, where it’s like if you just let that go a little bit, you suddenly find that wow, that person doesn’t seem to be going away quite as often. They want to spend more time with me. Right, because you gave them that freedom where you know it’s a classic thing when you’re telling someone, I don’t want you going on tour anymore. This sucks. No one wants to be around that. And so

Matt: No.

Alex: subconsciously that that person might end up taking more tours than before. yeah, it has been very difficult. I mean, yeah, but my current wife is is just incredible and it’s never been an never been an issue. And because it’s never been an issue, that’s exactly how it worked with me. Where I was like, she’s so great that I don’t want to s spend time away from her so much. I don’t wanna keep going out to New York or going to Canada or go into this what if I had my own place here where I was very close to home and then I’m not gonna be gone for weeks or months at a time. We’re still gonna be closer together. So that was the you know, that was the idea with this place where I have this setup now. I you know, I have a I have a lot of clients from the UK and from Australia and basically I I I set it up so that You can get off the plane, I’ll pick you up at Palm Springs Airport. You can walk in here and it’s everything you need. All the guitars, pedals, drums, everything’s set up. Drum you don’t even need to bring drumsticks, cymbals, anything. So that takes away a little bit of that need where, like, okay, I don’t need to go to Toronto for six weeks anymore. They could come here. And actually really enjoy it because ‘Cause it’ll be warm.

Matt: Yeah. Do you do you miss that travel and exploration of a new studio though?

Alex: No, I don’t. I you know, like a few years ago I would have said yes, absolutely I used to love that travel and going to new places and and you know but you reach a certain age where that is maybe not quite as appealing anymore, you know. I mean if I was lucky I got to stay in some nice hotels, right? Like I when I do the City and Colour records, we would go out to Nashville and we’d be staying in the W Nashville.

Matt: Ha ha. Mm.

Alex: Very nice. Yeah, that’s great. You’re still away from home, but yeah, it’s nice. But not everybody has that sort of budget and oftentimes it might be sleeping in some bo sleeping on someone’s couch. Yeah, I’m pe people always did their best for me and I really appreciate that. But at the same time, you know, you get into your forties and now in my fifties it’s like I can’t be sleeping on people’s couches. I just can’t. But

Matt: We’re too old for that.

Alex: I really really love this band and I think we can make an amazing record. So how can I make this work? Well, so the only way I can make it work is have them come here. And and you know, but but once you have a place and you have it set up and you have all your favorite stuff, you know, that is appealing to me. Like they it’s kinda like this workshop that’s right there, this magic workshop that’s right there. You know, yeah, I the I do miss going to certain rooms sometimes, but but not enough to worry too much about it. I’m too busy doing stuff here to worry about it.

Matt: Yeah. Have you and the wife ever considered packing up and moving back to the UK?

Alex: after the election last year? Yes.

Matt: Ha ha ha.

Alex: yeah.

Matt: Does is it I mean, is that like legit? D I mean, is it would you consider like moving to back you know, bat maybe maybe to Cornwall, right? Or you know, maybe maybe to another town that where you could

Alex: It’s it’s not I mean, it’s not expressly because of that. I mean it’s like I love this country so much. I am a US citizen, so I am an American as well as being still British. I’m a dual citizen. And I love this country, it’s been so great to me. But I wasn’t born here and it’s not necessarily my culture, although I have adopted it and love it. So I my point is I guess

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alex: No matter what, there’s always going to be a thing of I’m from somewhere else and maybe I should go back there. No and it’s not to do with n not being happy here. It’s just a sort of thing of, you know, like, well that’s maybe my maybe my home is back over there. but I mean, you know, I still have family over there and my mom is elderly and I miss her very much. And so there, you know, there has been this thought of

Matt: Yeah.

Alex: Maybe that’s something I should think about and then and then I I’m you know definitely with the election last year that pushed me a little bit further in that direction. You know, but there’s two things. Well I mean, one, I’m very well set up over here and it’s not quite as easy as just packing a few things in a suitcase and getting on a plane.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alex: I mean I have a mortgage and a huge amount of debt. My wife has a job and I have my clients here and it it would be it would be a lengthy and difficult process. The second thing is that

Matt: Yeah. Do you

Alex: The political situation in the UK is just as bad and is getting really terrible and is going the same way. So I feel like what would be the point of that? I’m just gonna go into the same thing, except with worse weather. and lastly, the thing is I’ve spent a lot of my life running from things. And I sort of feel like

Matt: Yeah. What do they say out of the frying pan into the fryer?

Alex: with this political climate. I just don’t know that the although it’s definitely very appealing to just get away from it and and run away from it because I can, but I don’t know if running away from it is the answer.

Matt: Yeah, stick it out. St stay here. Let’s talk about well actually before I ask you that, y do you have kids?

Alex: We do not have kids. We we partly because of my lifestyle

Matt: Yep.

Alex: We really waited way too long and found out too late that really we left it too late. And we we really tried and we did we did IVF, I don’t know if y you know what that is and all that stuff, but

Matt: Mm-hmm. yeah, yeah. Yeah, I’m I’m aware of it. But

Alex: Right. We basically le we basically left it too late and we are too old to be to be doing it successfully. So we we had to we had to stop. It’s very it’s very unfortunate, you know, ’cause I didn I’d never it never in my life I hadn’t met anybody that I wanted to have kids with. There’d just be no way. It wasn’t until I met my current wife that

Matt: Right.

Alex: maybe with her that would be different. But it was already really too late by that time.

Matt: Okay. Well let’s let’s I don’t I don’t mean to cut you off about that, but I but I do want to talk about n this space now. can you talk a little bit about the thought process of moving to Joshua Tree and purposely setting up a residential studio, really?

Alex: Yeah, it’s one. Right. Well, so, you know, a big part of it was as we as we discussed that that thing of me constantly being gone. I mean, there was in the last twenty years there’s there’s been times on on your when you do your tax return there’s a deduction that you can use, the the amount of days that you’re out of town. And even if someone else is paying for that trip, you can still claim that as a deduction. It’s just set I don’t know how much it is, maybe it’s a hundred dollars or whatever. ‘Cause it’s just an automatic thing. And so when I would do my taxes every year, my accountant would say, How many days are you out of town? And I’ll calculate it and I’d be like, my God, I was out of town seven months last year. And it’s just, you know, a ridiculous amount of time. So I kind of felt like I wanna spend more time at home, I wanna spend more time with my wife and my cats and you know, and be a a little bit traveling a little bit less. So that was the idea with having a a studio of my own that was really equipped well enough for anyone to be able to come out here and work. And secondly, it was also a little bit of a throwback to my days in the the early 90s of the residential studios, like Sawmills, because for me that was such a life-changing experience. You know, to the young kid in a punk rock band who I would, you know, never been to any place like this, and you go out to this beautiful scenery. I remember the you’d be in the control room, there’s a Trident desk, and you’d be looking

Matt: Loston. Mm. Lost ya. You wanna jump back in? I’ll be here hanging out, waiting for you to come back in. Mm-hmm.

Alex: Matt, I’m really sorry. my internet went out again, so I had to hotspot on my phone. Hopefully hopefully this will stay good. I’m sorry. I’m sorry about that.

Matt: All right. no worries. No, yeah. It It froze on on me and I was like, shit, is that me or is that him? And then when you disappeared, I was like, okay, okay. So we’re good. a hundred percent. Yeah, we’re still recording. So I will completely you won’t even be able to tell. So we we the question was to talk about, you know, the creation of this space and the decision to move to Joshua Tree and create a residential studio and you still

Alex: Will you be able to to join it back together? Okay. Okay, great. But so I was you know, I was I was talking about the that studio Sawmills in the UK, which is just this fantastic, beautiful residential studio. And as you were recording in Sawmills there was windows everywhere, which you know, I’d always worked at studios in London or Birmingham or Nottingham. They’re always in a like dingy basement, you know. And so being at Sawmills

Matt: You start to go into it. Right.

Alex: The control room has a window that looks out onto a lake as far as the eye can see, forest and lake. I mean, it’s just incredible. You’d be rocking out, playing your parts, and be in this amazing, peaceful environment. And you know, when I was in New York, there was there was the opposite thing. It’s the whole point of this my studio in New York was you come to the studio, then you go out and drinking until 5 a.m. You know, that’s the New York. lifestyle and it’s very cosmopolitan, metropolitan. But so come you know, at a certain age I realized I want to do something different and and I always remembered what a incredible experience that was at Sawmills. And so I thought what if I could offer people something like this where you could come out to the studio, you can stay here, stay here for a week or two weeks or whatever. It’s peace and quiet, there’s beautiful desert scenery, natural light. And and so that was the the concept really was you know, most residential studios these days are gonna be impossible, right? But I was like, what if there’s a way that I can make it work and I I can make it affordable for people? So instead of staying in some fancy hotel, you’re staying in a in a trailer. But it’s a really nice trail, it’s a vintage trailer and it’s been refurbished and it’s got a lot of character. And it’s got a it’s got Netflix and air conditioning and it’s very, very nice. So it’s mu it’s sort of like a more glumping experience. You know, I don’t I don’t offer catering, it’s definitely a little bit lower budget type vibe, but that’s the whole point. You know, the the whole point is that I need to make it affordable to clients in today’s music industry.

Matt: Yeah. And talk to me about the studio itself. Like what you you mentioned bands showing up without even needing to bring guitars or drums or even sticks for that matter. So talk about the planning of what you put into the space.

Alex: Well, yeah, I mean I put a lot of work into the the space itself in terms of because we built the building from scratch. So it was actually great that I could design I want very high ceilings, which which the contractor said, no problem, that’s dead easy and then it ended up that it cost me another thirty five thousand dollars. And I was like, I should have just stuck with the low ceilings, no one would have cared. But I mean to me If you’re gonna do it, you’ve gotta just you gotta do it right, you know? And so, you know, I didn’t wanna have a place that was like, Well, it’s not very good, but it’s it’s affordable. I wanted to have a place that it’s great and it’s affordable. So we’ve got high ceilings, natural light, all that stuff. And then, you know, I tried to set everything up in t I like to have lots of equipment around so there’s always stuff to to play on and and

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alex: Always stuff for people to try. I’m you know, I remember when I used to visit studios in New York or even San Francisco, and there’d be these fancy studios that were, you know, this incredible you could tell that they’d spent thirty grand just on the lighting, you know, and they got this fantastic big black leather couch and all this, you know. And I’d be looking at it and I’d be going, Well, this was designed by an engineer, not by a musician. When I worked at Tiny Telephone, John had this old, old couch that was falling apart that he got from a thrift store at Tiny Telephone. And it was falling apart, it was an old 70s couch. But anyone who sat on that couch, you’d immediately be like, I don’t want to get up. It’s just so comfortable. I just want to stay here all day. And be like, okay, stay here all day. I’ll bring the bass guitar over to you. You can play right there. Again, working with John at Tiny made me realize, you know You wanna design everything from a musician standpoint. You wanna have a funky old piano that has a lot of character. You wanna have a drum set always set up so that anyone can just immediately jump on it, even if they’re not gonna record. They wanna jump on it and try something out. You know, you don’t want to be like, yeah, okay, let me let me set up this eight piece drum set, you know, just give me an hour. You you want everything set up and ready to go, everything plugged in and everything comfortable. good coffee, you know, that’s more important than the any of the fancy lighting or the couch. And I would also say it’s more important than the equipment that’s in the rack. And oops and one thing I will say that was very interesting is that I don’t have a huge rack full of fancy stuff. I don’t have big banks of ten seventy three’s or APIs or you know, I have a lot of really great stuff, but a lot of it is very basic and does the job really, really great. Because I chose to put my money more into buying instruments and equipment and having a comfortable space that people could vibe on.

Matt: I I think that that is a a a fantastic way to do a space. And I always tell myself if I were ever to lose my mind and build another studio or b or get involved in a in a studio on that I would always set it up to where

Alex: Yeah.

Matt: there would be that that just show up. It’s already, we’re ready to go. You wanna play that keyboard? Play it. It’s on. It’s you can hear it and we can I could just engage the track and we can go.

Alex: Right, exactly. That’s so much more appealing. That’s the all the stuff I learned from John Vandersleis. You know, he would tell me you can have all the fancy compressors and ribbon mics you want. No one cares. musicians, they don’t care. If your coffee’s shit, they won’t come back. So get get good coffee, get a comfortable couch. If it’s winter time, put out blankets so people can stay warm or at least make damn sure you put the heating on. I saw Larry Crane, a good friend of mine in Tape Up, also wrote a very similar piece just a couple of months ago and I really enjoyed reading it because he was right. It was you know, it was don’t worry about equipment. Like no one cares about all that stuff. It’s it’s about

Matt: Yeah.

Alex: We’re about working with people and taking care of people and making people feel comfortable and that’s so so important. And so that’s that’s how this space was designed, you know. There’s a lot of funky stuff that I’ve got from thrift stores and little weird knickknacks and, you know,

Matt: Yeah. You know, I interviewed Philip Broussard. I don’t know if you know Philip, but he worked a lot.

Alex: I I kind of do it. Yeah, no, I I haven’t met him, but Philip actually took over one of my old studios when I was in LA.

Matt: Okay. So you you you might have an indication of his past history with Daniel Lanois and and what really inspired the hell out of me out of that interview was listening to Philip talk about those spaces that they would create at Teatro and in New Orleans at at Kingsway and talk about making it just so that musicians could show up and it was just like a

Alex: Yeah.

Matt: The the t the recording equipment was there, but it wasn’t overthought. It was just like, let’s just set it up, get it going, make it comfortable for people to play so a vibe could be had the minute they walk in.

Alex: Yeah, absolutely. That’s it. You don’t wanna you know, you don’t wanna spend hours trying ten different mics on a guitar. But it’s like by the time you get there the guitarist doesn’t even care anymore. He’s just lost interest, you know. So yeah, it it’s good to have everything my rule is have everything set up and have everything working. The minute I find something not working, a cable, a mic, it just gets tossed. I don’t wanna deal with it, you know. Everything needs to be working all the time.

Matt: Yeah.

Alex: Yep. There was it it was originally an old garage here. Not quite big enough for a studio, but I thought, well maybe if we could just extend it a little bit, maybe it needs a new roof. You know, that was the plan. But when we got into it, you know, once they started knocking down some of the walls, they were like, This wood is fucked, it’s it’s rotten, it’s this is from the nineteen fifties. So

Matt: So you built a building from scratch, huh?

Alex: It’s probably thirty percent of the original building, you know, like the main frames and the corners were were still are still original. But then we had to add new concrete and extend it out ’cause the the live room wouldn’t have been big enough. So it’s is essentially it’s called a reefer, but it’s essentially built from scratch.

Matt: What are the pros and the cons of living in the desert?

Alex: well that’s a really good question. The pros are it’s very peaceful and quiet and there is definitely something special about the desert and people always comment about it when they come here. You know, they always say I never knew it, but there’s there’s something a little bit magical about it and and I would agree I can’t quite put my finger on it. But the yeah, there is something quite special about it. The the cons of living in the desert are it’s boiling hot in the summer and it’s freezing cold in the winter. It does snow out here and it gets very yeah, it gets very cold. And so it’s like harsh weather conditions, that’s for sure. There this like six months out of the year are great. You know, right now is is great, fantastic.

Matt: wow.

Alex: But pretty soon it’s gonna be boiling roasting hot. So there is there is that.

Matt: Yeah. I grew up in the desert southwest, so I you know, I have an experience with it, but it you know, Joshua Tree and Palm Springs and that whole part of California, man, there there’s a there’s a different kind of beauty there. It’s lovely.

Alex: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there is. And there’s a you know, there’s a lot of nature and wildlife around and you know all that stuff I think is really inspiring to make an album. Twenty years ago, if you’d asked me, I would have said it’s really inspiring being in Brooklyn and seeing all this crazy stuff going on all the time and and that you know, that worked for me at that time and that worked for energy of those particular records. But now I feel like much more at home with this this is a much better environment for somebody at my state my stage my state of mind to to be in.

Matt: Do you do you think that if you’re trying to make a heavy record, that it’s counterintuitive to be out there because it’s you’re so relaxed, or or do you think that that that has no bearing on it?

Alex: Well, I think it’s you know, that i if if you already have that music written in mind, then that’s that’s in your personality and that’s not gonna suddenly change by you know, you’re not gonna suddenly come to the the desert and w and you know, wanna suddenly start playing lap steel on everything. You know, I think it’s I don’t think it n it necessarily changes your your viewpoint too much, you know. I mean it’s I don’t know, something that’s very urban inspired, like a hip hop record. I don’t I don’t know. But I mean like I said, I think if you’re doing that, it’s already within you anyway. So it’s not gonna it’s not gonna necessarily change that. if anything, there’s less distractions because there’s less to do around here, so you tend to get things done more quickly. Th that is also one of the cons though, is also

Matt: Yeah.

Alex: We’re in the middle of nowhere. So if you break a guitar string, you’re not gonna head to guitar center. It’s you’ve got to go to Palm Springs and it’s an hour away. So I have to make sure I’ve always got drum heads, I’ve always got guitar strings, I’ve always got extra of anything that I need, because we are fairly far away. Having said that, a lot of times in LA, it could easily take you an hour to get across town. to get to guitar centre and an hour back. So it probably isn’t really any different.

Matt: yeah. So as as one as a record maker, as as an audio professional, what is your philosophy based on your experience up to this point about money, about survival? Is there an approach or a or a way you look at it to make it work for you?

Alex: that’s a really great question. I mean it’s you know, it’s the one thing no one wants to talk about in music, right? It’s the I mean, for me, my my approach, I I never envisioned being able to make a living, you know. Like me, the kid in the nineties, I would never have imagined like, in thirty five years you’re still gonna be doing this and you know, have a career doing it. I would never have imagined. So my thing was always

Matt: Right.

Alex: I just had a hunger to work with exciting artists and help them along the way. And that was all and I never really worried about the money. Or, you know, I always thought like if you just do stuff that’s really good, the money will follow. The money will take care of itself. And that’s always been my rule and it’s worked out fairly well. But what I will say is that I make enough money to get by, I can pay my mortgage. But I wouldn’t be able to pay it if I was living in a major metropolitan area, only in a urban in a s you know, a a more rural area. And I don’t spend a ton of money on fancy clothes as you can see or anything in particular. You know, I but to me it’s it’s very successful. I you know, I feel like I I get to run the studio, I get to work with really great bands. And I don’t have day job and I don’t have a boss. And that’s like my worst fear. I think my my two worst fears in life are like going to prison and having a boss with a day job, you know? And and because I’ve had to do so much of that back in the day, I really don’t want to go back ever. So to me, you know, every every day I I wake up and go, Well, I’m not a millionaire. And I don’t even have much spare money at all this month, but I have just enough to cover the studio. And I don’t have to get a day job. That’s great. I feel good. So that’s that’s my attitude on on money. It’s it’s it’s tough, but you know, you know.

Matt: Yeah. And Yeah, and y but you’re living in I guess one has to make a choice, right? You can you can live in terms of you could live in a metropolitan area, you’d have a smaller space, and you’d probably be paying twice as much. but here you’re out in the desert, it’s beautiful, you probably have more space than you would in any city. And it’s a it’s a lot more relaxing on on the soul.

Alex: Absolutely. It is, it really is. But I mean also like on a musical level, you know, I’m I’m well aware that I’ve I’ve turned down a lot of projects over the years that I didn’t feel were a good fit for or that I wasn’t a good fit for or was a genre that I don’t like or I’m not comfortable with or just the artist just didn’t resonate with me. And you know, I’ve had managers and girlfriends and friends that have said, What are you doing? You you’re turning down some of these people a actually have really good budgets. And I would just feel like, Yeah, I know, I I’m not stupid, but I just can’t do it. I just couldn’t I just not in a position to pretend I like to me it’s the would be the worst insult to any musician, you know, to pretend that I like their stuff in order to get paid and sit there, you know, while they’re y they’re doing their songs and I’m thinking, God, this is shit and then they turn to me, how was that? And I yeah, it’s really good. I just feel like I just couldn’t live with myself to do that. So yeah, it would be really, really tough. To me, music is my entire life. It’s everything. It’s so important to me. It always has been. So to me it’s like that’s the one thing that you don’t fuck with. You don’t, you know, you don’t

Matt: It would be too

Alex: lie and pretend and get involved with things that you don’t believe in. You just don’t do that. I might do it in other aspects of life that I care less about. I try not to, but it’s possible, but not with music. It’s too precious to me. So you know, I definitely could have made a lot more money than I have had. But I just wouldn’t be happy with myself. So I can at least look back and feel

Matt: Right. Yeah.

Alex: confident in those decisions. There’s you know, there’s some artists that my name has come up for and I’ve just said, you know, I’m not the right p I don’t I don’t get it. I’m not the right person for this or I don’t like it. And they’ve gone on to to sell a lot of records. I’m I mean a lot of records. And so you know there’s always that slight regret of like, well damn, you know, we could be doing this interview now from my mansion in the the hills if that was the case, you know. But I I would I just also would just hate myself. And the reality that I know to be true is that if that was the case and I’d done that record with a band I hated and they had been very successful, all that would bring me is more of those kind of projects that I hate. And I’d end up stuck in this path, you know, that I was not happy with. So Yeah, absolutely. In music industry you get pigeonholed so very quickly. And I dealt with it myself a lot as producer, you know. Years ago I worked with this band called The Locust who’s from San Diego. A very intense, aggressive band, l like if you took Devo and played it at like ten times the speed, you know, it’s just very chaotic.

Matt: Yeah, it’d be a vicious cycle.

Alex: And I didn’t necessarily always love what they were doing, but they were really awesome guys and they became really good friends of mine. And I liked what they were trying to say. I liked what they were trying to do. They were really trying to do something different. And I respected that. And so I agreed to work with them and it and it was great. But then what happened was immediately after that, every project that came in was the same sort of very chaotic, insane, you know, like non-melodic. stuff and I would think no no no I don’t want to keep doing this that’s not that’s not where I’m at. I just I just did that once but that’s not my whole thing. So then I turned down project after project and I actually didn’t work for like almost a year because of that because I had to like work my way back into more of the the type of stuff that I felt comfortable with. And that can that can really happen. And when I worked with City and Colour, I did two records of City and Colour And those records sold a lot of records. And then everybody that called after that was like a guy with a beard and tattoos with an acoustic guitar doing heartfelt songs. And I was like, no, I don’t I don’t want to be that guy who just gets stuck in the same thing. And I see that with producers a lot. And I and I feel sorry for them. I I I know why they did it. They, you know, they kept getting the work and they kept getting paid. But before you realize it, you are totally stuck in that. that genre, you know. And if that genre suddenly becomes uncool, which all genres do eventually, then you’re completely without word. So I was I always felt like I wanna just keep moving on.

Matt: It I I can Yeah, I c I can imagine like a director, like let’s say you do a couple great horror movies and then after that all people want to do is hire you to direct horror movies, but maybe one day you want to make a romantic comedy or or you wanna make a a you know, a documentary. can be very Right. No, no, no. You’re the you’re the horror director. Well, we’re we’re about

Alex: Right, and they probably wouldn’t yeah, they probably wouldn’t let you. Right. Right. So with me it’s been in it’s always been about balancing, you know, like money is the last of my concern. When a when an artist approaches me or reaches out to me, money is the last thing I think of. The first thing is let me hear your music. Let’s see if we connect on that. You know, like everybody, I have to pay my bills and I have a lot of debt, especially after building the studio. I have a lot of debt. And so You know, so I have to balance it out. But I always wanted to be in a position where I felt like I don’t I don’t want money to be the thing that b that gets in the way of of making a great album, you know. So I try to Right I don’t want it to be the deciding factor, yes. so, you know, I always try to make it work out one way or or another. So it’s

Matt: Yeah. Or the dis or the deciding factor.

Alex: you know, some clients have more than others, you know. Client that’s on a major label, you’re gonna expect them to pay a bit more of a budget than an unsigned band who no one’s heard of yet. So, you know, my rate is kinda set accordingly to that, a somewhat sliding scale based on what I think is fair in any situation, you know.

Matt: Well, before we go, I wanted to ask you, in your estimation, what do you think what’s the strength that you bring to the table when working with a band?

Alex: That’s another really good question. There’s several. One of them for me is As a producer with an outside objective opinion, I can bring a lot to the table. And this is going back to the days that I worked with Colin Richardson, where I felt like, you know, what good is a producer? We don’t need a producer. And he would suggest, you know, why is this part here? It’s way too long. Haven’t you realized it’s way too long? God is right. Why couldn’t we see that? So there’s like an objective opinion that that comes from not being involved in the songwriting that I think I’m really, really good at. But you’ve also got to be able to be good at working with people in order to com to win their trust to convince them to try taking out that part or changing that part or whatever it is. So those are the those are the two things that I’d I bring is the kind of people’s skills and and the objectivity. But I’m also my thing I guess is like I have zero interest in making a record that sounds like what everybody else is doing. I you know like I’ve had managers who say, you know, like, you’ve got you’ve got to listen to the radio and listen to what everyone else is doing and I’m like, I do. But not because I want to sound like it, because I whatever they’re doing, I’m going to do the complete opposite. Whatever I hear on the radio, I hear it, or on whatever’s currently popular and I go, Great, I’m not gonna do that. There’s you know, there’s a big thing at the moment for the the the kind of Phoebe Bridges sound, the the acoustic guitar sound and it and I love Phoebe Bridges. I think she’s incredible and I love that sound. But what is the point of just replicating that? Again, there’s zero point. I believe in making records that are timeless and that stand on their own. So to me it’s like it’s not like how can we sound like Phoebe Bridges? It’s like how can we sound as great as Phoebe Bridges sounds, but in a completely different way. And so that’s the challenge that I want to bring to records as you know, I want to do I want to make records that are unique and very specific to that artist. So what is special about this artist in particular and How can we bring that out and maximize that as much as humanly possible? Like I don’t I I don’t wanna sanitize it, I don’t wanna make it sound like other records, I don’t wanna smooth out any rough edges, I want that particular artist to be as their their personality to be as strong as possible on the on the record. So that’s what I always try to do. You know, years ago I when I was first learning My whole thing was how do you make something sound good? How do you make a snare drum sound good? What’s the technique? Or how do you make a guitar sound good? Which mic should you use to make it sound good? And I worked a long time on that, and then at some point I realized, boy, that’s a waste of time. There’s millions of people in the world that can make a snare drum sound good or a guitar sound good. It’s not particularly interesting. What is more interesting is How do make something sound unique? How do you make something sound weird and unexpected and interesting and specific to that particular artist? So those are the challenges that I that I bring to the table and try to challenge artists out of their comfort zone and to doing something that they hadn’t thought of before. Or maybe, and I invite them to challenge me to do something I hadn’t thought before. thought of before. You know, that’s always a great challenge when when somebody suggests something and I go, Ugh, I don’t know how to do that. I have no idea how to do that. But we’re gonna have fun finding out. We’re gonna we’re gonna try. So so yeah, that’s I you know, I know there’s people that that make generic records and that’s what they want to do. And they work hard at it. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, but that’s not what I want to do. I you know. So

Matt: Mm.

Alex: I’m all about making the ex experimenting as much as possible and you know unique sounds as much as possible, interesting recording techniques, anything that’s not standard. But at the end of the day, I’m also a a song guy, right? And so I believe if any of the weird character stuff that you want to do is great, but there has to be a song to hang it on. Otherwise then it’s just weird without any real meaning to it. So the best thing to me is when you get something that here’s a great song, it doesn’t have to be in a traditional verse chorus, verse chorus bridge, whatever structure. It doesn’t have to be that, but it does have to be a great song. And then you hang something unusual or unexpected on it and it just elevates it to a really unique place. So that’s that’s what I’m always always trying to bring to the table.

Matt: I love it. I love it. Well, we’re out of time, but I wanna sincerely thank you. It’s really great to talk to you. I’m glad that we had this opportunity and great to have you on the show.

Alex: You too. This is this is, you know, this this I’ve done quite a few interviews with people where we talk about production and stuff and it’s it’s oftentimes a lot about a lot of times about the gear. You didn’t really go there and you went into much more interesting, deeper subjects, really great questions and I really appreciate that. It’s much more fun to talk talk about that sort of stuff.

Matt: Well, thank you. Thank you. I always s say this to a lot of my guests. I hope at some point to to interact with you in the real world and

Alex: Yeah, that would be that would be excellent. Well, I’m well overdue for a a Bay Area trip. Алексей.

Matt: Come on up. Yeah. Fri get John Greenham along the way and and we’ll all go out.

Alex: Yeah, that would be amazing.

Matt: our connection’s getting a little wonky here. So I’m gonna so I’m just gonna say this. I’m gonna don’t hang up yet, but I’m gonna say thanks again, Alex, and we’ll talk soon.

Alex: Okay. Thank you so much, Matt. Really appreciate your time.

Matt: And then I’m gonna stop recording here.