WCA #604 with Alec Ness

Matt: Alec, welcome to the podcast. Good to have you here. can you give us the state of the state? You know, for those that aren’t familiar with you and tell us who you are, where you’re at, and what you consider yourself.

Alec: Yeah. Thanks. Sure. So I’m a mastering engineer and I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And I’ve been some other things before that, but these days and for a while now, that’s all I’ve been doing is just mastering records here.

Matt: Awesome. Let’s let’s get into the past a bit. Where did you grow up?

Alec: So I grew up in the Midwest. I’m originally from Grand Forks, North Dakota. and then I went to high school in South Dakota. And I moved to Minneapolis about a week after I graduated. Get me to get me to a place where there’s more music happening. And yeah, then I’ve been here off and on since then.

Matt: Talk to me about growing up in the Dakotas and what is that like? Cause I I don’t I don’t think I have many friends that that grew up in the Dakotas.

Alec: Yeah, it’s really funny, like some pla you know, when I lived we were talking about San Francisco before the we started, and when I lived out there, people asked me if we had like, you know, running water at my house growing up. Like just really like, you know, I’ve never like, where is the Dakotas again? And yeah, it it’s, you know, not a place that a lot of people are familiar with. So that’s like one of the most interesting things about having grown up there is just, you know, talking about it with other people they’re, you know, pretty unfamiliar with the cities there or what, you know, the culture there. I grew up in like a pretty relatively cool town, I think. There was like a college there with a lot of exchange students and bands and there was a local coffee shop and a venue down the street where there were just a couple of people, just for the love of the of the music, just passion people, just booking shows and losing money on every weekend. But just You know, bringing touring bands in between Chicago and Denver or whatever and just giving them a place to stay for the night, just so all the kids there could like see music, you know, and so it was Aberdeen was a town. It’s like twenty f twenty six thousand people maybe. But but that was like pretty special part of growing up there because, you know, otherwise it’s you know, flyover country for the most part for any kind of music culture.

Matt: And it’s interesting how college well, colleges in general, but college radio stations, coffee shops, small venues, like even in that particular situation that you just named, like how that becomes a hub of culture.

Alec: Yeah. One hundred percent. I think even in Minneapolis now I see that because we’re, you know, in a part of the country where there’s not a lot of other big cities, you know, and a lot of a lot of other like mark like bigger market cities for art or for art school or for music or for you know restaurants and so like kids just flock here to go to college you know from all of the surrounding states from Iowa South Dakota Wisconsin North Dakota and so you get this sort of you know like built up culture here because it’s just a constant influx of young ideas and young people And it’s one of the things I love about living here. And there’s a radio station here called Radio K that it’s always U of kids working there. And I’ve found so many cool bands and local bands just listening to that radio station even.

Matt: And not to get like too deep into it, but I mean, really, it’s like those those institutions, it’s like the coffee shop becomes the social hang to meet new and interesting people. And then when you get into college radio or radio in general and and start to bring music into the picture, it it starts to open your brain up to bigger ideas, bigger world concepts. So

Alec: Yep. Yeah, I think that concept of like a third space too, like the coffee shop thing, you know, like especially in a small town like that, the thing that’s not work or home, you know. And if you have something that where you can go and you’re always running into, you know, like-minded people or people that are challenging your ideas or bringing you new ideas, it’s like so valuable, especially growing up. and I was there that was like two thousand nine. that I left. So, you know, we weren’t quite there with like the internet yet either, or like with, you know, it was still pretty primitive on like discovering music. It was kind of music blog era, I guess, was like just about to hit like the the pinnacle of like pitchfork era, you know.

Matt: growing up, what was your pr prior to, you know, the this scene that we’re talking about, what was your exposure to music or technology as as a younger kid?

Alec: Yeah, so I I don’t really have a ton of music in my family. I had an uncle that played in like punk bands and he wasn’t much older than me, is maybe ten years older than me. So I was always sitting outside his room listening to him just like shred on a Mesa boogie cab, you know, like and was like, Wow, this is so cool, you know, just like listening to like metal music and he was always listening to like Björk or like propagandi or like, you know, like this this all this alt music. I was like, wow, this is like unlike anything I hear on the radio at home or like, you know, my parents’ C D collection or whatever. So yeah, then I grew up with a single mom mostly. So, you know, I was you know, it was we were busy. She was, you know, finishing school at first and then you know, working a lot and then remarried and then yeah, I didn’t have a lot of I didn’t have a lot of music around me in the home necessarily. but I got into it pretty early in school. So I had actually I was born with half my fingers. So they’re cut off at the first knuckle. So I wanted to play like guitar, like my uncle. But I couldn’t play guitar because I I can’t I mean I I can kind of, but I can’t, you know, like make all of the chord shapes. so I had an instructor early on in band that was like, you should try drums. I think drums would be like a really cool instrument for you. And I got totally hooked on it. I just like from then on, like drums would like that was like my main thing in high school. I was a snare captain for the last two years in my high school. Drumline and like just playing kit all the time, spending like as much time in the music wing as possible. I remember like I convinced the school pre the school principal to let me take an independent study recording class with the orchestra teacher, which was not something that existed at my college, but he was using like Cakewalk Pro Audio Nine in between classes to like record his like country band and do edits. And I was always in there bugging him, like, what is this? What are you doing with this? So you know, what is the software? He was like, Why don’t you just see if you can take like a like a fourth hour class with me or whatever for a for a quarter and I’ll just you hang out and I’ll just show you, you know? And so that was like that was like my entry point then into like the recording side. I was just totally fascinated, you know. I was like, man, you can layer the tracks together and like And I think for me, coming from not being able to play any other instruments, you know, like I could play some piano and we’ll get into that because I got into it in college, but the idea of like layering stuff and using MIDI was like mind-blowing. I was like, whoa, I can make a band out of this myself, you know.

Matt: Yeah. It’s fascinating to me the how the how the mind just once you realize, wait, we can do this, this track, and then add more tracks, it’s like such a revelation when you’re at a younger age.

Alec: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Like the idea of, you know, being able to add to your own ideas, you know, and then bring other people to add in and not just have a straight shot. Like I think you just think of recording as like, yeah, you just run a tape machine, play what you’re gonna play and that’s it, you know? And then overdubs yeah, like you conceptualize overdubs and you’re like, Wow, there’s like a whole world out there.

Matt: Yeah. So briefly on on the hand thing, so that was something you were born with cut off at the first knuckle, right? Okay. So obviously you know you don’t know any different. So but do you have you have fingernails?

Alec: Yeah, exactly. I’ve never known anything different. I have I have two. I have one on my thumb and one on my pinky. So and then the rest of the hand is is no fingernails. So I haven’t pretty easy time with keeping them clipped. I do have some fingerprints. Yeah, that some of them are pretty weird looking, but I have a couple normal ones too.

Matt: you have two fingernails. What about fingerprints? Okay, okay. gripping drumsticks, any problem there?

Alec: You know, it actually it ended up being like perfect. I really I didn’t have any issue with that. And I played both match and traditional grip because I played traditional grip for a drum line. I played match on kit. And my left hand is a little more dexterity than my right, so that worked out pretty well to be able to flip the left stick either way. But yeah, it really was not an issue. I was able to play all the rudiments and like play everything pretty, you know, without without a problem.

Matt: Yeah, ’cause h had it happened later in life, it would have been probably more of an issue. ‘Cause like I say, you you didn’t know any better, so

Alec: Yeah. Yeah. The only thing that r I really couldn’t do, I always joke, like when I was a kid, I couldn’t do the monkey bars. That was always a pain. I couldn’t for s I couldn’t get my grip around enough to like hang on to those. And then guitar was the other thing. And I ended up t going to music college for composition here. And so I took a lot of piano classes and then I realized I could actually stretch an octave on my left hand and almost on my right. And I was able to play piano pretty decently well.

Matt: Yeah.

Alec: like, you know, enough to compose music. I’m not like a pianist or performer at all, but, you know, way more than I ever thought I would be able to. so it even surprised me as I got older, I think, you know, and I kind of tried things just to see like, I wonder if I can do that, you know.

Matt: what’s your what’s your dominant hand?

Alec: So I’m I’m kind of ambidextrous because some things I can’t do with my right, so I’ve had to learn to do with my left. So I like throw with my left, but I write with my right.

Matt: Yeah, super, super interesting. when it comes to music and and discovery of record production, where where were your first questions starting to percolate about like, wait, how are these records made? How does how does what I hear, how is that created? Where is that created? Like just analyzing audio in general.

Alec: Yeah, I think so after I took that class, I got my own Cakewalk rig. I got like a like a just cheap computer and started doing multi tracking with like an Alesis USB mixer. And then I started, you know, I was listening to a lot of probably like Interpol at the time and stuff. And I was, you know, trying to record stuff that sounded like that. And then realizing like, whoa, this, you know. Theirs sounds way better than mine. You know, like that’s that’s interesting. Like, what do I do to get, you know, to get to that? and probably around this time I met a friend of mine. Is we reconnected actually years ago, but his name’s Matt Irwin, and he was working at the guitar store in Aberdeen. We had a really great guitar store, is the other nice thing about that town. There has been a Fender dealership there since the 60s. So there’s all these really cool old Fender amps floating around the ethos there, like in schools and like vintage instruments and the guitar shop scene there was actually kind of cool because of that. But he introduced me to Ableton. And so he was like, you should download this software, Ableton Live. You should try that out. because I was listening to a lot of electronic music at the time too. I got introduced to Aphex Twin early in my life and was kind of you know, curious about that side of things. And yeah, that was that was when I really got into the production techniques, recording techniques. Cause then I was then I got into making music really seriously with Ableton. I was like, okay, I wanna I wanna release records and try making stuff. And then, you know, you start thinking a lot more critically about what you’re listening to. Okay, well, that’s interesting. Those are electronic drums or like those, you know, So listening like New Order or something, I was like, what? You know, how why does a snare sound like that? And like trying to do it in Ableton, you know, and gated reverb and this type of stuff. So yeah.

Matt: Yeah, and such a technology jump between, you know, music of the 80s and music of the early 2000s, and trying to, you know, connect the two and re and figure out, well, wait, the the newer stuff is sounding like this and the older stuff sounds like this, but there’s a there is some continuity there. There is some commonality.

Alec: Yeah. Yeah, and inspiration, right? Like especially around like two thousand this was like two thousand eight, two thousand nine. I graduated high school in two thousand nine. So I was listening to indie music that was really influenced by, you know, the the eighties generation of stuff. And you know, the and I was listening to a lot of like shoe gay stuff too. So a lot of like nineties stuff too, my bloody valentine and stuff like this and You know, that music relies really heavily on guitar pedals and a lot of, you know, modulation to signals. And so just trying to figure out this also too, like the in like I said, the internet was YouTube was a thing, but I was like reading manuals mostly to learn this stuff. There wasn’t like a great way to get on the internet and learn, like, how do you, you know, what amp did Kevin Shields use or whatever? You know, you I just kind of had to like ask my friends, like, what do you know? You know, and they’re like.

Matt: Yeah.

Alec: You know, like yeah, I think this I think this like jazz chorus, you’re like, okay, do they have one of those down, you know, and you go down there like, they don’t have one. I guess I’ll get the thing closest to that and have my buddy play through it and see if that sounds like slow dive, you know? Then you’re like listening to it and you’re like, I think we gotta go get a reverb pedal. So we’ll go trade in some old snare drums and get a reverb pedal, you know, and like just like totally trial and error, like not

Matt: Amazing. Yeah.

Alec: able to Google like what do I do to do this? Just like I think this is what it is. Let’s try that, you know?

Matt: That’s an interesting thing that people coming up now don’t have to deal with is that same trial and error in in the way you were doing it. I think that there’s value to that.

Alec: Yes. It’s slower. It makes you think more. And I think it’s a little more critical, you know, like and I’m gonna like add a like really sideways top com like comment onto that. It’s something that’s special about the Midwest, too, I think, is that people do stuff like that and then they happen into their own thing. And since they’re not in like a really dense, you know, music scene, they’re not looking at everyone else around them as much. They’re just kind of isolated in these little experimental, you know, scenes and these little bands and projects. And you and you happen into these things that end up being like accidents but really unique or different, you know. And I’d That’s a trait I’ve noticed from then when I was starting to like now working on bands here or like living here is seeing that’s like a common alley, a common thread all the way through.

Matt: Yeah, I would agree with that because on the coasts, everybody’s trying to, you know, it it’s got its own speed, its own ecosystem, obviously, and and it’s, you know, it’s it’s it’s good in its own way, but definitely the Midwest the Midwest has produced some very interesting music over the years that comes out of nowhere sometimes.

Alec: One hundred percent. Yeah.

Matt: So yeah, there there once again, there is value to that, that lack of seeing what everybody else is doing and just kind of being in your own slower bubble, slower moving, slower paced bubble.

Alec: Yep, I think so. And like learning from your friends or learning from, you know, experimentation, you know, less shortcuts, I guess, you know.

Matt: Yeah. So how does this progress? This this interest, you know, it’s it’s Cakewalk, it’s trying to figure out what what they’re what, you know, guitar amps at the guitar store and

Alec: Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, I probably was in the middle of all that when I graduated. You know, I had like some projects going. I was using Ableton a lot. and so then there was a music college here that’s now defunct in Minneapolis called McNally Smith. and I think they went under in like the mid 2010s, probably two thousand sixteen or something. but at that time in two thousand nine they were they were

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alec: one of the bigger music technology programs in the country. so I went there. I had an interest in in art at the same time. I was working at a photo studio and doing portraits and stuff. And so I was kind of split like one direction or the other. Am I gonna go to the art school or am I going to go to the music school? And I’d ended up going the music route But I went for composition, which was really interesting. I, you know, and as soon as I started, I kind of had a doubt and a realization that I probably should have gone for technology because that school had all of these SSL consoles and all these API lunchboxes and all this stuff. And as a composition student, I wasn’t allowed to use any of it. And my tuition was paying for it all. You know, the school was like outrageously expensive. I was going into tons of debt to be there. And I was spending all my time in like the Ableton lab or like the piano practice rooms, you know. so I I I really the Ableton thing really got reinforced when I was there. I met an instructor who was an Ableton certified trainer, and you know, I didn’t know it at the time and neither did he, but he was about to start an Ableton certified training center in Minneapolis. And I had another instructor there who I’d still keep in touch with as well. And the two of them kind of picked up on that I was like a, you know, a I had my mind set on doing this music thing as a living. I didn’t know how yet, but I was like pretty determined. And I was coming to them kind of like, hey, what do I need to do to get the most out of this program? And I kind of feel like it’s not fitting for me, like composition’s not exactly what I want to do. And they were really upfront with me and they were like, you know what? Maybe you should take a break and go just out in the world and try just try it out. Just get out and make music and and, you know, go go to New York or go to San Francisco and go see, you know, what there is to see because you’re so young. And so I did that. I dropped out and I moved to San Francisco. And it was like one of the best decisions I ever made. I I didn’t finish that program. And I went out to the coast and just was making music with Ableton and meeting people. I was going down to LA a lot and then, you know, jump jumping here, but then I became an Ableton certified trainer. I learned the software really well and I ended up applying for the program, which at the time was pretty small. And so then I was down in Pasadena doing like a three-day testing to get certified for the software. And, you know, at the time I was probably 23, and you know, I didn’t know what I wanted what I was gonna do to make a living out of this thing. I thought, okay, well, if I produce, maybe I can teach Ableton on the side, you know, but regardless, like this is like a really good experience for me. And so I made it through that program, and then I was there teaching that, teaching Ableton to I I mean a really a range of people, like beginners that were like, I just want to make beats. And then I also worked with like, you know, I had this composer named Linda I worked with. She’s like a renowned composer from Montreal, probably like forty years older than me, and was using Max for Live and like getting her composition she was like performing with speakers that were like somewhat random and almost like autonomous feeling on stage and she wanted me to help her like get this into Ableton and have Ableton work as like a and instruments. So doing consulting work with stuff like that too. And that was like kind of the entry point into like or like the confirmation, like okay, the technology side of this, like the tech the technical side, like mixing and using the DAW and using the software and using the hardware, like this is what I’m this is kind of my thing. You know, like I think I like making the music too, but like I really excel at this, this side of it.

Matt: Mm. The San Francisco from for a kid from the Dakotas, I mean, quite quite eye opening. Yeah. Well, I came from New Mexico, southern New Mexico. And when I first got here, I was like, wow, this is different.

Alec: Yeah. Yeah, it was a big jump for sure. Yeah. It was so cool though. I’m sure you felt this too. I like I I stayed with a friend in like Santa Rosa, Napa area for a while first while I was finding a place. And I would just wake up and go outside and was like, There’s mountains everywhere. This is like amazing. Cause I grew up in just this flat, you know.

Matt: Yeah.

Alec: Kind of unremarkable landscape. It’s beautiful in its own way, but it’s not like that. It’s not, you know, ocean and mountains.

Matt: Yeah, there’s definitely a a a magic to the environment out here that I take for granted sometimes. And then I go out into it. I’m like, right, this is cool.

Alec: Yeah. Yeah, like mere woods and some of the nature man, it’s just so beautiful.

Matt: what was your take on San Francisco, the city itself?

Alec: So that I was there like twenty eleven to twenty fourteen ish. And you know, that was during one of the big tech booms. That was like during like Twitter getting the tax break to get the big building downtown. And I was working in coffee at the time to support my music. And so I was interfacing with a lot of people who were like taking the Google bus down to, you know you know, f living in the city and then taking the Google bus out to go work outside the city and just seeing that impact on the city, it was it was tough, you know, it was hard to see like, okay, yeah, people are like not people are moving out and away and further and further away, moving out of Oakland even because and artists like people that I think contribute to the culture of the city are moving. And natives, people that grew up here like moving out of the city because there’s all of these transplants coming in and making so much money to work in tech. And it was kind of bizarre to be there, not for tech. You know, I wasn’t there for tech. I just l moved there because honestly, because I had a friend out there and I was like, I want to just try out one of the coasts. And You know, it was crazy to be caught on the crossfire of all that stuff, kind of in the city and like a time when I it was changing really rapidly. And a lot of people were comparing it to like the dot com boom in the nineties, you know, and like, the housing price is skyrocketing and you know, I’m sure you and I, since you live out there too, we could talk about this for the whole hour in and of itself, you know.

Matt: Well, and a c yeah, just a couple of comments on that too, is that, you know, some of my recollections were, you know, you had these new people coming in. Like I had been in San Francisco starting September 6th, 1988 is when I arrived. And, you know, at that period of time in the eighties and the early 90s, there was just a huge amount of music happening here. Clubs every which way. We were having in fact we were having this discussion last night at a at an event. so many bands, Primus, four non-blondes, just Counting Crows, just a bunch, just a bunch of different music coming out of the Bay Area. And then as that’s as we kind of got over the hill of that, all of this new technology started to happen, and then you know, basically, you had like there were here’s an example. Young couple, you know, they’re they’re they move there, they buy a place and andor rent a place for exorbitant amounts of money, and then they just happen to live across the street from a music venue that’s been there for 30 years. And then they and the rest of their new neighbors start to lodge complaints against the place, and it becomes, you know, it just it snowballs from there and it just really starts to tank a lot of great. artistic situations in the city. So I don’t want to be the old guy that says, in my day used to be super cool. It’s it’s it’s it’s gone through some transitions there and it’s disappointing that period of time that you’re talking about.

Alec: Yeah, it was it was tough as someone who was trying to do music as a living because I I kind of felt like I was looking around and I couldn’t find it. You know? Like I was trying to go to find this third space thing. Like where can I go just to meet other Ableton people or meet other electronic music people? And and I did find it on the internet at that point. That was when SoundCloud was really taking off and I had like a production alias and I was working on remixes and doing this type of stuff. And I was going to LA a lot too. That was when like the The LA beat scene thing was really taking off. Flying Lotus and some of this stuff. And so it was a really good time to be making electronic music on the West Coast. Like the I forget the name of that that weekly event at the was it the airline or there was a there was an event down there, I’ll I’ll think of it. low end theory. That’s what it was called. But you know, there’s

Matt: Mm.

Alec: But it was tough in the bay. I felt like I I wasn’t finding it as much there. I I was looking really hard to try to find like where can I do like a you know, play a show with other like-minded people on like a Wednesday night even or whatever. And it’s like the bar to the bar to entry was just so high, you know, because like everything was so expensive that it was like, Well, you’re not gonna do that at like the independent, you know, or like, you know, even you know, bottom of the hill or something. Like I I ended up like Real like there were some like metal bands and stuff making it happen or like some kind of like more like bands making it happen, but as like an individual it was it was harder. and there were only a few of us doing the Ableton certified thing there. Like I think there were three of us in in the entire Bay Area when I was there that were doing the Ableton certified trainer thing, which was crazy because in LA th there’s obviously there were a lot more and New York too.

Matt: Mm. When did as as you’re doing this Ableton thing, are are you treating it like are you approaching it as a from an artist perspective at that time?

Alec: Yeah, I was I was making I was producing and releasing music and then remixing and doing a bunch of sort of I had like a solo career endeavor going as like a producer. and that’s actually what got me into mastering here is I moved to Minneapolis after I left there and I was doing that producer thing and then I started producing for some artists here that started gaining some traction. And then that started pulling me into the studio environment because then they had some resources and we were like at studios making stuff. And then I was getting because of the technical side of things, we was getting getting asked to mix stuff and then was getting asked to master stuff. And then I was like, okay, I like this even more than I like the producing thing, you know? So it was like yeah, I was the artist path and I had my own records out and stuff, and that was sort of a stepping stone to working. with other people, which then was a stepping stone to working exclusively with other people doing engineering.

Matt: Did you spend any time I mean I assume in Ableton you were doing a lot of your own mixing. Is that accurate? Okay.

Alec: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: But had you spent any time tracking bands or doing any of that?

Alec: Yeah, I had a brief window between Minneapolis and San Francisco where I actually ran a small recording studio that was had been built out and abandoned. Like someone had built it out, had snakes, and I it was it was pretty well configured. Like I had to solder up some it was at a in the back of a guitar shop back in South Dakota. And that was actually a really great time because I had the owner of the shop taught me how to solder. And taught me how to fix guitars, taught me a bit about electronics, you know. I learned a lot about microphones at that time, learned a lot about just technical stuff that I wouldn’t have known. I was mixing live shows at that time too for him. He had like a live sound company. And so that I got some experience with like the the physical world first, you know, track like phase, you know, understanding phase, understanding microphone placement, understanding all this stuff and You know, then I was using Pro Tools and I was using Logic and I was learning all these other softwares too. And that was probably a year and a half there between. so maybe my timeline is pushed. Maybe it was I think I left college in two thousand ten. So no, that’s that’s about right. And then Yeah, then it recording, I wasn’t in San Francisco, there was nowhere to, you know, I was recording vocalists in my apartment, but I mean there was nowhere to record drums or anything like that. But as soon as I got back to Minneapolis, then I was working with artists and then there was space here again. Like we could have people would have studios with drum sets and people would have recording situations, people would have microphone. collections and consoles and stuff. And I I actually was able then to get more into that again when I got back here.

Matt: Was it a cost barrier in San Francisco? ‘Cause I mean there there’s plenty of places and to to record, but g you know, the cost factor is part of the equation there.

Alec: Yeah, and I think, you know, just the scene I was in, it was more kind of writing as you were recording. We were like producing and it was more writing sessions, like making stuff. And I think the prospect of renting out a studio for a day just to go in and piss around in there was like completely out of the question, you know, at that time.

Matt: Yeah, interesting. Okay. the the mastering thing. Talk to me about the realization of hey, I like this a lot.

Alec: Yeah, so I I was actually moving to New York when I stopped in Minneapolis. And I ended up spending a bunch of time there, but I ended up staying in Minneapolis. I got a month-to-month lease and never left. so I I met my wife now at the time, and I met my friend Braden, who ended up managing me for years as a producer and as an artist. And Then I met a few artists that I worked with and a few managers here. And I kind of just a couple DJs and just kind of like fell into this scene here and really liked it and started working since I was producing already and and you know, I was teaching Ableton at the same time. I kind of let go of that partway through this. You know, I realized teaching wasn’t necessarily my thing. And I liked having the expertise of the software. That was great. But I just wanted to use that for everything I was doing and for helping others in the way that I was making the music, not so much like teaching how to do it. So I yeah, I was producing records for an artist named Dizzy Faye here and then also producing for an artist named Dua Sala here. And both of them started getting a little bit of notoriety and like tour support gigs, and you know, were releasing music. And so I was ended up touring with Dizzy for multiple tours, doing like music direction stuff and running tracks from Ableton, as well as having produced a lot of this stuff. and as we were producing more and touring, We were going to sessions with other producers when we were out in Los Angeles or you know, when we were over in Europe, we’d like to stop. You know, her manager would put together like a session for a day at La Studio in London. And so we would work on stuff there with these other producers. And then we’d kind of leave and I would take it all and sort of like finish it and like start mixing it. And then as the record came together, I think for those records, we mixed with like a couple other people. Like my friend Haley ended up mixing with us at her studio. But I was overseeing a lot of the mixing and You know, I really liked that. I was releasing on a small label in New York at the same time as well. And just because of the ex the technical side of things that I was doing so much of, they were starting to have me do some of their catalog as well. And specifically mastering. They just liked how my songs were coming into the catalog. So they were asking me, Hey, can you master some of the other songs we’re releasing? And That was when I realized, okay, I really like this. Like I really like doing this kind of finishing thing. I I’m like someone who likes going and buying, you know, something used that needs a little TLC rather than buying it new and then like polishing it and getting it perfect. You know, that’s like a a trait of mine. I also like working with limited resources a lot. I when I was producing, I didn’t like using plugins and stuff. I liked using analog synths and really limited tools because it it challenges. you to be more, you know, to be more creative and more expressive. And maybe back to my childhood that working with my half my hands, you know, it’s like there’s like something there.

Matt: that’s an interesting perspective. Yeah, that’s I I I didn’t make the connection until until you said said that. That’s that’s interesting. what what I mean what other things come from limited resources from your perspective?

Alec: I think I think empathy. I think like getting further into the thing because you are forced to really understand it. You know, I think that if you try to like going back to this metaphor of like buying an older piece of equipment and restoring it, even like a garden tool or something, if if you do that, you have to really understand how the thing works and what it needs, you know? And you aren’t able to just Throw the kitchen sink at it and hopefully it it makes it better. You know, I think like with production, like I can’t try a hundred different synth presets because I don’t have a hundred different synth presets. So I need to actually listen to the song and understand what the song needs, and then figure out how to do that with the limited tool that I have, rather than, well, let me just throw everything at it and see which one feels the best. You know, and I think that. I realized that that purposefully putting myself in that situation was really helpful for getting the best art out of myself.

Matt: I have a side tangent. So in in you saying that, okay, so photography is a is a hobby of mine. And I went to I like to I like to go to Goodwills. I like to go to thrift stop thrift stores. And my youngest son and I were there over the weekend and I found this old Nikon DSLR, this Nikon D50. You know, it’s kind of a beginner DSLR. but it was tr it was half off days, so I got it for seven dollars. And

Alec: Those are awesome. Nice.

Matt: No battery. There was a note inside from the previous owner, use this kind of battery. So, you know, I ordered a battery. I already have lenses that work with this, and started to really dig into the philosophy of this particular camera and its sensor inside. and it’s that discovery of an older tool like that, I think is is what you’re talking about to some degree. you know, finding something used and bringing it back to life and and utilizing it instead of, you know, buying the fancy new thing or just letting it sit and rot.

Alec: Right. Well, and with that, you know, when you go out and shoot with that, I also like photography for what it’s worth. I that’s a hobby of mine as well. And like I have a similar philosophy with that. I think a lot of people shoot film for this reason too, right? Is like, but even if you go shoot with that D50, I feel like you you know you have a relationship with that camera then after having learned the sensor and learned the menus and restored it, versus like going and buying a Leica. And just going out and firing away and like hoping the camera will do all the work for you. You know, just like it you know, it’s just there’s there’s such different philosophies, you know.

Matt: Right. Right. Yeah, there’s also a big financial difference there. I love that that you brought that up. I think that that that’s brilliant. And I’ve brought this up in past episodes, and I encourage everybody to go back and listen to what he has to say about this. But producer Michael Beinhorn, I’ll put a link in the show notes to this particular episode. But you know, what Michael was saying in this latest time that he was on the show.

Alec: Yeah, for sure.

Matt: He said, you know, we’ve been for years, we’ve been homogenizing. We’ve been putting things on the grid. We’ve been perfecting everything. And basically we’ve been teeing it all up so that AI can just generate AI AI can just replicate it perfectly because it’s all just so homogenized. Whereas the quirky things, the different things, those things stand out as unique. And and that plays a little bit into this philosophy you’re talking about about using older things that you really can, you know, older sense, older whatever it is, ol older microphones, older ideas, techniques. I think everybody knows what I’m saying.

Alec: Yeah, and you know, even newer tools just limiting the tools you have. Like, you know, you could use a DSP synth, but then print it to a hardware track or to an to an audio track and delete it, you know. All right, you’re committed. That’s the synth sound. You can’t go back and dick around with it anymore. You know, that’s what it is. And if you want to change it, put an EQ on it or something, but you know, you’re not gonna go in and adjust the filter cutoff for two hours, you know, and like

Matt: Yeah.

Alec: And I I have a note to your point, I have a note on my mastering desk that says, Should everything sound the same? You know? And I just think about it all the time. You know, because there’s this tendency with that sort of, you know, homogenization you’re talking about with with my work now too as a mastering engineer to It should be as loud as all the other records and it should have the same low end as all the other records. And I think people some people come in with insecurity in their, you know, in the in this in the side view and, you know, kind of ask for that type of thing. And I think there’s a there’s a really there’s a lot of value to doing the opposite, to leaning into the things that make the record different from all of the of all the other stuff, you know.

Matt: Absolutely. Everything can exist in its own view. And I think that that is that insecurity is what drives a lot of people to the comparison game. My thing’s gotta be just as loud as that record and or or you know, just as just as much bottom end when maybe it’s not even warranted for what they’re doing.

Alec: Totally. Yeah.

Matt: And I love this. on episode five ninety-nine with Alex Newport, Alex talks about how he’ll listen to the radio to know what not to do.

Alec: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do the opposite.

Matt: Exactly. Well, talk to me just more let’s talk more about the the evolution of mastering for you and and establishing a foothold there.

Alec: Yeah, so from there from doing stuff for that label and for for friends and for the project I was working on, I kind of came a came to a close of my touring years at I’m 35, so around 29, I was like, all right, I think I’m gonna be done touring. And that was also right when the pandemic was starting up, coincidentally. I didn’t know that was coming.

Matt: Hmm.

Alec: But I decided I was gonna back off the touring and work more in the studio. And it was perfectly timed on my part because touring all ended about six months after that, for you know, a couple years. And there was a guy here that had been mastering some of my records that I basically just bothered until he let me come hang out at his studio. His name’s Greg Reierson, and he was down the street from me, he’s like three blocks away. And so I went in and just started, you know, badgering him with questions and you know taking my DIY approach and you know bouncing it against the the professional world and hey, what is this, you know, is this right? Am I doing this right? You know, this type of thing. And eventually he gave me you know, long story short, we hit it off and he eventually gave me keys to his studio. And you know, he’s I don’t know if you’re familiar with him, a Rare Form Mastering is his studio, but he’s got a Neumann lathe. He does a lot of cutting here, and he’s got, you know, PMC XBD speakers, and he had the IB1s that I currently have in there. And it’s a very well-treated room, tons of gear, you know, it was intimidating at first, but I was, you know, it was a resource for me. I would go in before he got there and after he left.

Matt: Mm.

Alec: and just work on the stuff that I was mastering and kind of learning the the ropes and obviously the barrier to that to entry, if I were to get that myself, I would would have never had access to that type of studio. you know, and so he taught me a lot and gave me the resources to learn myself. And I also was bothering Mandy Parnell a lot at the time and she, you know, she spent some time chatting with me, which was really, really helpful. You know, more on a philosophical level with her than like technicality stuff. But in some ways, you know, things that she said to me still stick with me every day too. And so those two are the two that I kind of latched on to, I guess, for you know, hey, can you guys help me? You know, my my older mentors. And Greg was here and was seeing me a lot more often. And then I I got my my wife got a house in 2020.

Matt: You want?

Alec: And I had the opportunity to build a s a space there, you know, have a space that was isolated that wasn’t, you know, had no neighbors and like apartment, you know, and could actually build something, could actually like cut into drywall if I needed to. And so then I started shaping that up myself and I bought these IB1s, PMC IB1s from Greg and started, you know. slowly acquiring the gear I needed and you know really speakers and a converter were the only thing I needed to start and some treatment in the room. You know, and then I just really started just going at it and like mastering anything I could and you know I think full time now I’ve been going almost I’ve been going almost seven years full time and

Matt: Exactly.

Alec: It was, you know, there’s a there’s more to pack, you know, the whole story is a lot more to pack in than took 20 minutes. But, you know, a lot of the people I met over those 10 years of touring and Ableton stuff and producing and you know, making records with other producers, a lot of those people when I when I pivoted, I I really made a commitment, you know, this is what I want to do. I really like mastering. I really enjoy doing this work. Like every time I do this, I feel like this is what I’m good at. It usel utilizes my skill set. I like working with a lot of different types of people.

Matt: yeah.

Alec: And there’s a lot of volume in mastering. You’re just, you know, interacting with tons of people every day. And so I just committed. I changed my website. Alec Ness is a mastering engineer. I sold my synthesizers to buy my speakers. And, you know, I I sold a whole modular rig, all types of I sold thousands of dollars of synthesizers and bought those PMCs and just really like went to school and just worked. nonstop for years and that just grew really really quickly and I’ve just been you know kind of following the the river as it goes you know I don’t feel like I have a ton of control over my path necessarily I my whole path has been kind of you know what what opens before me and what feels right I I’ll I follow that and I think that with that a lot of these I think people

Matt: Yeah.

Alec: see that, you know, and a lot of these people I was working with, they they sort of caught on to that. And there’s sort of a a you know a nonverbal thing, a sort of like understanding going on there of like, you know, well well let’s try Alec. Let’s give Alec the record. Like, you we’ve been working with him in production for years or whatever. And and that just evolved really quickly to okay, now I’m just doing mastering. And yeah, that led up to where I am today pretty much. So

Matt: Amazing. I’m I’m really curious about some of those lessons that you you were mentioning some philosophical things that Mandy had brought to your attention. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Alec: Yeah, I think you know, the one thing she said a bunch of times to me when we met, and we only met a few times, but she was really busy and, you know, I was contacting her at when she like right after she did Aphex Twin and like, you know, right after she did Björk, she was like, you know, now being a busy mastering engineer, I’m like, God, it’s a miracle I got her to spend time talk you know, it’s like it’s I was very grateful she spent time telling me talking to me at all. But you know, one of the things that She always said was being control of your space. And I think that that is something I still think about a lot is, you know, you reduce the variables and reduce the randomness and increase the understanding, I think, you know, of what’s coming out of your speakers and what, you know, it it comes back to what we’re talking about with the camera, with the, you know, it’s like if I have 10 EQs and I don’t understand any of them, I can’t really use any of them, you know, but If you have one plugin EQ or one hardware EQ and you understand exactly what it sounds like and exactly what it does, you know, and exactly how it’s going to change the sound, then you know you’re in control of the situation and you can make a meaningful change or make no change and understand that you’re not going to make a change. And I think that was a big one. And the other one for me was just the emotional component of working on other people’s music and the empathy component and the understanding component. I think, you know, spending time with a record and understanding a record before you start, you know, getting in there and making changes to it. I think, you know, your relationship with someone’s art or someone’s vision not like setting aside the ego and not changing something because it should should sound like XYZ, but maybe trying to understand what that person was trying to do and molding your own expectations, you know, to what they are bringing to the table. And you can learn a lot from people when you do that, you know.

Matt: That’s great. That’s really good stuff. as one of the last things to talk about, I wanted to find out, you know, when it comes to, you know, survival, money, that whole business, do you have a philosophy about how you approach money as an audio professional? and any, you know, is it a work in progress? And do you have any thoughts to share with others?

Alec: Yeah, you know, I think it’s never been the reason I got into this. Obviously, I th I think it isn’t the reason for most of us to get into this. And so it’s been secondary for me my whole career. You know, it’s been the art first. You know, I was working in coffee for a long time to support the music stuff. You know, I was, you know, mastering records. You know, I’ve been really fortunate to be full time for a for a seven years going on seven years now. But I you know, I was when I was producing especially was burning the candle at both ends, you know, and and the early years of mastering too, you know, never felt secure. Was always like, okay, like I, you know, I’m fortunate to do this and and, you know, I recognize that, you know, there’s no you know, there’s it could go away. And so I need to be you know, live day to day and be grateful for it and like work as hard as I can to keep things moving. And I think that has always been my philosophy is just one day at a time, always taking a step forward and like trying to, you know, just work as hard as I can. I think recently I’ve had to adapt a little bit. The survivability thing, I think I went a little too hard for a lot for a while. And I, you know, was working 70 hours plus and weeks and like wearing a heart monitor because I was having heart palpitations and like this type of you know, the health starts catching up to you too. And you’re like, okay, there is a balance here too, though. You know, like you like you can work really hard and make sure you make a career out of this thing, but like also you have to like, you know, you have to learn where your limits are as well, too, you know, and and none of that was in service of money. I think all of that was just in service of like

Matt: Okay. That’s good.

Alec: you know, at first getting going, and then I think, you know, serving the the work. Like I I spend quite a bit of time on records. I d I don’t ever sit down and say, How many songs can I get through today? It’s always how good can I make these songs? You know, and so if a record takes me a long time, I just stay until it’s done and I’ll just work overtime and I’ll just work someone asks me to do something, I’ll just come in and do it. And like, I think that’s where, you know, as a mastering engineer too, everything’s really short timeline. Can this happen tomorrow? Can you have this tonight? Can you have this, you know, can you do 12 songs tomorrow? Can you do, you know, and like the more, the larger records you get, the more that starts becoming the norm. And I think there’s a balancing act there of finding where you can where you can accommodate and where you have to push back and where you have to create boundaries and not only for your health and for yourself but for the the work too, you know, for the art. Like I am I gonna do a good job if I stay up until three in the morning and master this record? No. Can you guys wait until tomorrow? I’ll come in fresh at six in the morning. I’ll have it on your desk by 10 a.m LA time and it’ll sound amazing. You know, and so I I guess that’s I can maybe speak more to the money thing too, but the survivability thing, that’s been a huge thing for me, I think. And I I see that with other engineers too. Like that’s a common conversation I have with other mixed engineers or other mastering engineers is, you know, okay, balancing time because time becomes the the precious resource after a while where, you know, you have to be careful with not just letting it ev evaporate out from underneath you, you know.

Matt: Yeah, time is the real currency here.

Alec: It is. I think so. Yeah. And you know, for the money thing, I’m fortunate to live in Minneapolis. It’s cheaper to live here. You know, I mean, you can get you can get a studio here for a thousand dollars a month, you know. And so I have a I’ll be moving into a space. I’ve, you know, been improving this home space for the past seven years. And I’ve been working here and I have it so dialed now. I know exactly what it sounds like, and I’ve

Matt: Yeah, straight up.

Alec: Had a bunch of people out to work on it and trend off system in there and all this stuff. But like I’m gonna get a space probably end of this year, early next year, and it’s affordable. You know, I can get a space here. And and I talk to, you know, people in LA that I work with or people in New York, and it’s much more difficult, you know, and it’s really difficult to get a room. on top of your living situation in those places. A lot of people have end up building out a garage or something just because it’s more practical. And so that’s one thing. And I think the other thing too is just that, you know, like that thing I was talking about earlier with people, I don’t know, people understanding what your intentions are. I think that if, you know, if you put the art first and if you really just try to like serve people’s vision and people’s music the best that you can and you know really try to work on things that resonate with you rather than trying to do the most volume possible, you know, but trying to focus on, okay, I really understand this and I feel like I’m the right person for this. Like, I think that that goes a really long way. And then the money comes later, I feel like, you know, because people then value you for that and are willing to pay you for that. And, you know, you will be paid for the work you do, but you have to do the best work that you can and you have to serve the art in the best way that you can is what I’ve found. And then, you know, the money the money will the money will follow, I think, you know, and and it’s just also having flexible expectations about what that looks like, I think. You know, I think for the early years, like I didn’t expect to make much money because I knew that I had a lot of I had a lot of work to do, you know, and now I’m able to ask a little bit more, but you know, it’s still trying to do the best work that I can, like I said earlier, about, you know, not staying late and cramming 12 songs in because I want to make sure I never sacrifice the art, you know.

Matt: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, well put. fantastic to talk to you and great to have you on the show. this has been really enjoyable to speak with you and I appreciate your time. audience link will be in the show notes as they the links are always in the show notes. You know that. So Alec, great to meet you, man. And I say it to everybody, but we’ll meet in person at some point.

Alec: Yeah. Thanks so much, Matt. It’s been a really lovely chat. I’m really, really grateful to be on the podcast. Thanks so much.

Matt: Excellent. Well, thank you again and take care.

Alec: You too. Bye bye.